Fussiness. I Think I May Go Mad...

[RhysP]

[quote name='bythesea' post='563167' date='Aug 7 2009, 10:57 PM']Totally disagree with this - if it is a custom instrument then yes, it should be built to be exactly what you want (providing your luthier knows what you want). But a boutique bass I see as being more like a high end car. You get one because it does what it does, not so you can change it to do something you think it ought to be able to do.[/quote]
Absolutely.

[4000]

[quote]I don't just get another bass at random, I get one when I can afford one or when I want to try something new. And unfortunatley I don't live any where near any boutique bass stores at all so trying said basses is a much harder task.[/quote]

I can only suggest that before you fork out more money on another boutique bass it might be worth letting the train (or your car, or a mate's car if you don't have one) take the strain and pop up to somewhere that sells more boutique stuff, no matter how far from you it is. Take the opportunity to stay over if necessary. It may cost, but it may save you money in the long run and you may get a better idea of what you really like. I usually go to the Gallery a couple of times a year if possible and I live up North; it's not cheap but it's worth it.


[quote]The Squier is far from perfect, in fact it has 2 tones to it's name and the tone knob is awful, it ruins the tone if it's even nudged. Luckily, I'm constantly trading basses so I rarely loose out on much money at all. I don't feel I need a posh brand, I just prefer those brands. I'm not a brand snob and I would happily play an unamed bass if it tickled my fancy.[/quote]

My question here is do you actually [i]prefer[/i] those brands (i.e. do they work better for you) or do you just [i]desire[/i] those brands? It's a different thing. It sounds like you're reasonably happy with your Squire (nothing is perfect), happier than you are with your Smith, so you don't actually prefer the Smith.

I've been playing since 1980, I've played most of the stuff out there, and I'm constantly telling myself I need this bass or that bass, and yet my old Ric consistently outperforms pretty much everything else when it comes to sounding how I want to sound in most band situations I find myself playing in. I don't actually [i]prefer[/i] brand A or brand B, I just [i]want[/i] one! Unfortunately when I get one I've often then found out that it wasn't for me after all.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='rslaing' post='563144' date='Aug 7 2009, 09:32 PM']I'm not. What I inferred was that if he is happy with his Squier, stay with it and stop randomly buying gear until he physically picks one up and is happy enough to confidently buy it.[/quote]
Thanks for the clarification.

[sdgrsr400]

Well maybe what you need is a bespoke rather than a boutique bass. Buying an exotic off-the-shelf is a bit of a gamble as by definition they have moved away from the mainstream view of size/shape/materials/sound etc.

Someone like Overwater would build a custom bass to your spec, and in the last BGM there was an article about Paul Everson who might be more affordable.

Good luck!

[redstriper]

This post makes me sad - it's a sign of the times that we are all spoilt with too much money and choice.
You will never be happy so long as you are trapped in the cycle of spending money on tools rather than getting down to the job in hand, (playing bass in this case).
My advice is this - get a bass you can live with and keep it for years, learn to deal with it despite it's shortcomings, show it who's boss, master it and get what you want from it instead of wasting time buying and selling basses because they're not quite right.
Certainly get it set up and adjusted to suit you, but don't just give up on it because you can - your perfect bass will find you when you stop looking and it will be right under your nose.

"Bass players call from all over, wanting to know what type of equipment I use, what type of bass, what kind of strings-- things like that. I'll tell them, but that's not what's important; it's the feel. The strings don't make the sound, it's the feel. It's all in here, in the heart."
- James Jamerson, 1979

I've posted this vid twice before, but it's as relavent to this post as any other -

[Kiwi]

Good post redstriper!


EDIT: Schwartz a bit idealistic though. It needs interpreting in context.

[silverfoxnik]

A lot of common sense has already been mentioned above and hopefully that will help Josh get to where he wants to go!

Regarding the discussion around 'boutique basses', I think that we have quite high levels of expectation around certain well-know brands, such as MTD, Ken Smith, Sadowsky etc, etc.. But the reality is they're all going to be different instruments and some will suit some of us more than others. Understanding that we need to be able to manage our own expectations when we buy/sell gear, especially basses which are so subjective in terms of the feel, playability, sound etc, would certainly help avoid feeling overly disappointed if a new bass doesn't do what we expected it to do.

And I certainly agree with 4000 when he talks about how much OCD we can develop, especially when we have more time to tinker and worry.. Isn't there some old saying about how 'the devil makes work for idle hands...'

[Kiwi]

What Schwartz is saying about managing options is very similar to how designers approach their creative process. It's often helpful to set up a rationale about what you want to achieve, that means to say, have an overall vision about where you want to end up before you start dealing with the detail. This is because the vision or end goal helps reduce the number of choices you potentially need to make to a much more manageable level and helps ensure your choices are at least relevant to one another as well in some way. If you don't have an overall vision because you haven't done enough scoping or background research then there's nothing wrong with that either, just call your effort research. Its important to avoid committing to something before your mind is made up though because it costs more to change things the further down the decision making process you are.

Also Schwartz is picking up on the concept of balance between order (limited choices) and chaos (absolute freedom) that has already been established in other fields of study such as molecular biology, genetics and population ecology, fluid dynamics, particle physics, sociology, blah blah. Its not often that someone approaches it from a psychological or anthropological perspective though. Really interesting.

I'd say every bass player goes through a period of research (option appraisal) when they're trying to find something they're happy with. The unfortunate thing is that it ends up costing money, however forums like Basschat wouldn't be as popular as they are if it wasn't for people wishing to exchange experiences. I don't think that Schwartz really picked up on or emphasised how important an option appraisal process is.

BTW, as an adjunct in Japan, offering a lot of variety is often a marketing strategy. When a product line is launched a whole range of variations on the theme are initially offered and the items that don't sell are gradually removed, ending up with an evolved and relevant product line. In the west often the reverse happens, one product is offered, it becomes popular and THEN variations are offered (Warwick and Fender being classic cases in point).

[LukeFRC]

I enjoyed the Schwartz film.

The thing I don't get about the bass though is if your action is so low how do the stings physically vibrate. I'm intrigued, I always figured the advantage of lower action was being able to play with less strength but this is played off against a lack of tone, like how do you get the difference in tone of different ways of hitting the strings?

[alexclaber]

Can we get some measurements for these actions? How many mm at the 12th fret? One man's high is another man's low!

Alex

[Josh]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='563240' date='Aug 8 2009, 12:57 AM']I enjoyed the Schwartz film.

The thing I don't get about the bass though is if your action is so low how do the stings physically vibrate. I'm intrigued, I always figured the advantage of lower action was being able to play with less strength but this is played off against a lack of tone, like how do you get the difference in tone of different ways of hitting the strings?[/quote]

I don't have a dead flat action, that would be ridiculous. There is enough height for the fundamental note to wring out clearly. I think I may have to get a few photos of both basses action to be precise in my description.

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='563214' date='Aug 8 2009, 12:01 AM']Good post redstriper!
EDIT: Schwartz a bit idealistic though. It needs interpreting in context.[/quote]

+1

Schwartz is talking about what Buddhism calls 'The Mire of Options'... i.e. too many choices is sometimes a bad thing!

[xilddx]

[quote name='Josh' post='562938' date='Aug 7 2009, 05:47 PM']Apologies for the forthcoming rant.

I think I'm almost at the end of my tether in regards to basses. I have been through a plethora of high-end basses over the last 6 months or so, and I haven't been able to settle on one for more than a couple of months before I move it on again because of stupid little things that I'm so fussy with it is quickly becoming a problem.

I've only had my Smith for barely a week and I'm just about to ready to list it up for sale. While tonewise I can't fault it and love what I can get from it, but after constantly resetting the action over the last few days(Both the neck and bridge) I can not find my ideal and preferred set up. To clarify, my ideal set up is a stupidly low action, with minor buzz and the tension is usually quite low because I dig in a lot, and as such I compensate by playing a full step down. Ironically, my £200 Squier has this action and I achieved it with ease, yet on a £3000 boutique bass I can't seem to get anywhere near it without seriously choking a lot of the notes.

I'm definitely not alone in being exceedingly fussy over set ups but I feel that I'm now almost too fussy for my own good. I'm irritated mainly because I've wanted a Smith for long time now and now I have one and was brilliant for the first few days, and now I really can't get on with it already...it's ridiculous.

Again. I apologise for the rant but this is just getting silly now.[/quote]

There is a lot of contradiction in the way you say you play and the ideal set up you like. You can't have your cake and eat it.

However, because it's a bolt on, you may have a slight "S" curve in your fingerboard profile where the neck joins the body. In which case you'll need a fret level and dress to get your lowest action possible.

If you dig in, you need room.

[OldGit]

No comment on my recommendation to take your bass to Eltham Jones.
So I'll explain why I recommended that course of action.

For many years I frustrated setup people by demanding low action and no buzzes for my plectrum style playing "Yee cannae change the laws of physics, Captain" was a common reply.

Then I discovered Eltham. I don't know how he does it but he does.

Unlike a lote of fettlers he will ask you to tell him what you want and then to play the bass in front of him. He will the fettle it whilst you wait and some times whilst you watch (if the shop allows it). This is repeated until you are happy.

He is the best fettler I have ever met and although I can do it myself these days he adds something else that just makes the bass feel and work so much better. I take mine to him in Bristol just for that last few percent that he can add.

He's in Bristol a few days a week which is a short train or bus ride from you.
Invest a day and a few quid in popping up there to let him have a go. You will not regret it.
You can play all the mainstream stuff in Reverb whilst you wait.

Alternatively +1 on a visit to the Gallery, BassDirect etc. but nothing will ever be right for you straight off the wall.

He works in a room at the back of Reverb in Bristol a few days a week.
[url="http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/index.htm"]http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/index.htm[/url]

[soopercrip]

My 2p
When you first pick up a bass you spend months learning how to play it wether it's a £50 taiwan piece of ply or a pedulla
Then you get something else and instead of learning that, you want it to play like the action you have become accustomed to
and it doesn't. So then you get some thing else, and something else, and it becomes "this is how I play, make me a bass to suit it"
instead of learning the difference and adapting.
If you bought a stradivarius, and didn't like the action, would you adapt, or fit a badass?

Andy

[bozzbass]

[quote name='redstriper' post='563213' date='Aug 8 2009, 12:00 AM']This post makes me sad - it's a sign of the times that we are all spoilt with too much money and choice.
You will never be happy so long as you are trapped in the cycle of spending money on tools rather than getting down to the job in hand, (playing bass in this case).
My advice is this - get a bass you can live with and keep it for years, learn to deal with it despite it's shortcomings, show it who's boss, master it and get what you want from it instead of wasting time buying and selling basses because they're not quite right.
Certainly get it set up and adjusted to suit you, but don't just give up on it because you can[/quote]


[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='563225' date='Aug 8 2009, 12:21 AM']I'd say every bass player goes through a period of research (option appraisal) when they're trying to find something they're happy with. The unfortunate thing is that it ends up costing money, however forums like Basschat wouldn't be as popular as they are if it wasn't for people wishing to exchange experiences. I don't think that Schwartz really picked up on or emphasised how important an option appraisal process is.[/quote]

Both these posts are excellent advice.

FWIW try relaxing your criteria for the bass a little, as Crazywiki says look at the bass as part of an appraisal process rather than expecting it to just be perfect because its expensive and has a reputation. I agree, it can be a bit irritating that a cheap bass like your Squier can feel better than the Smith, but looking at it another way, the price of the Smith tells you it is a well made bass which can be set up any number of ways, you just haven't found one you like yet. If as Crazykiwi says you are in a process of appraisal, be honest and ask yourself have you given that process enough time to explore the options open to you?

I think you said somewhere you have had the bass about a week. Why not set a time limit, like 6 months, and in that time do everything you can to get the set up sorted. If you don't like local techs, find some others, I'm sure loads of folk on here can make recommendations. At the end of 6 months, you'll either have a great bass set up how you like it, or you'll have a great bass you can sell at not much of a loss AND you'll have learned a whole bunch about how to set up basses and probably found a good tech you trust. Both of these may cure your 'fussiness' as you put it. Either way its a winner.

Also as a few have said so far, don't hold onto the low action thing too much, I reckon everyone's action creeps up over time. Again, it's the result of an appraisal process which just takes time and bit of faith in the idea it's worth persevering with things for a while.

Good luck!

[Johngh]

This thread has a lot in common with what I have gone through. I fell into the trap of thinking that having a boutique bass equals being able to have a ridiculous low action, and have now learnt that it does not.
I had a Sei 6, I had serious GAS for one for years, I had it for about 3 months and moved it on because I could not get the action low enough to satisfy my needs. I even took it to Mr Shuker and even he could not get it as low as I wanted.
As for chasing the holy grail of bass, I've now kind of given up on it as it just leads to the type of frustration that Josh is going though. The only bass I have ever had that gives me the playability I want is my Shuker headless 6er, which is just amazing.

I can almost guarantee that the following will happen. You will find a bass where the action will be spot on, but you will not be happy with the tone. Then, as you have now, you get the tone but you will not be happy with the action. It will drive you zazzbat !
One option is to try to get along to one of the Bass Bashes that pop up from time to time on here and try a few different basses out, sooner or later you will find one that suits.

[Pete Academy]

I've found the tension of Elixir strings always seems to help get a lower action without too much fret buzz.

Also, have you looked at Vigier and their carbon reinforced necks...no truss rod?

Trying to finding the perfect bass is like trying to find the perfect partner.

[TDM]

[quote name='redstriper' post='563213' date='Aug 8 2009, 12:00 AM']My advice is this - get a bass you can live with and keep it for years, learn to deal with it despite it's shortcomings, show it who's boss, master it and get what you want from it instead of wasting time buying and selling basses because they're not quite right.
Certainly get it set up and adjusted to suit you, but don't just give up on it because you can - your perfect bass will find you when you stop looking and it will be right under your nose.[/quote]

I'm with you 100% on this. But I can't help feeling that when I drop £3k on a bass I shouldn't have to make a huge effort to get it to do what I want. I'm not suggesting that because it's expensive it should perform well, just that people (myself included) would [i]expect [/i]to get what they pay for.

Thats a great video you posted by the way.

Edited August 8, 2009 by thedonutman

[Josh]

Whilst replenishing the whole of the Booze aisle last night, I was constantly mauling this over and have been taking in what's been said. And to honest, in regards to taking it out for a set up, I can't really see what else can be done beyond a fret stoning or a neck shim, which won't make much difference if (as CK has pointed out) the bass designed in such a way. There is no physical problem with the bass, the problem is (and which I accept) that my expectations were far too high and my fussiness has gotten the better of me this time around.

But, I now know that I'm always going to be more inclined to side with Jazz basses so I would not be sad to move this bass on for a Sadowsky.

[OldGit]

[quote name='Josh' post='563590' date='Aug 8 2009, 05:34 PM']Whilst replenishing the whole of the Booze aisle last night, I was constantly mauling this over and have been taking in what's been said. And to honest, in regards to taking it out for a set up, I can't really see what else can be done beyond a fret stoning or a neck shim, which won't make much difference if (as CK has pointed out) the bass designed in such a way. There is no physical problem with the bass, the problem is (and which I accept) that my expectations were far too high and my fussiness has gotten the better of me this time around.

But, I now know that I'm always going to be more inclined to side with Jazz basses so I would not be sad to move this bass on for a Sadowsky.[/quote]


Nuts can make a huge difference too ...

[velvetkevorkian]

If the action is playable but buzzy a fret dress may make all the difference- I did a "home-brew" fret job on my 5 string (and I'm in the process of doing it on my 7 too) with very basic tools and the difference was dramatic- I like a very low action as well and before this, couldn't achieve it without some notes choking, and that was with my limited tools and ability.

[4000]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='563641' date='Aug 8 2009, 06:52 PM']If the action is playable but buzzy a fret dress may make all the difference[/quote]

Absolutely. My old Warwick Dolphin bolt-on was never right when I first had it, but at the time (many years ago) I couldn't put my finger on the problem. I took it to the Gallery and Martin (within about 3 seconds) said something to the effect of "oh, very slight neck twist at the bottom. Can fix that with a fret stone". A few hours later it was brilliant, like night and day.

I don't really understand why you wouldn't even want to try a pro set-up unless you really aren't that keen on the bass in other ways. If you like everything else about the bass surely it's got to be worth it. It sounds to me (and I may be wrong) like you're talking yourself out of it so you can move onto the next big thing (I've been there!). FWIW, I'm sure you could probably get the action really low on a Sad, but I know for a fact that Roger himself doesn't recommend what I think you (or I) would call really low action.

Edited August 8, 2009 by 4000

[Josh]

[quote name='4000' post='563669' date='Aug 8 2009, 07:23 PM']I don't really understand why you wouldn't even want to try a pro set-up unless you really aren't that keen on the bass in other ways. If you like everything else about the bass surely it's got to be worth it. It sounds to me (and I may be wrong) like you're talking yourself out of it so you can move onto the next big thing (I've been there!). FWIW, I'm sure you could probably get the action really low on a Sad, but I know for a fact that Roger himself doesn't recommend what I think you (or I) would call really low action.[/quote]

I think I am talking myself out of it, I'm pretty sure the basses I've almost settled on have been Jazz basses and one of them was a Sadowsky. And as I've mentioned before, I got the exact action and playability I'm use to simply by dropping the tuning down by a full step and the slightest adjustment on the bridge and then I didn't touch a thing until Barrie wanted it back.

[steve-soar]

I've just fitted a bone nut and set up a P bass copy for a Basschater. The neck had a couple of high frets and after a slight dressing it is much improved.
However, his Squier Jazz which I also set up, dropped the action at the nut, has a slight lift at the body end of the fingerboard, this will need a bit of meat removing from the frets, as altering the truss rod makes no difference in this area.
I can't stress enough that a set up done by a good guy can make all the difference and if it needs a fret dressing, so be it.
It could be that only a Jazz bass will do for you.
Good luck.

Edited August 8, 2009 by steve-soar