Mr.T Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='559199' date='Aug 3 2009, 01:38 PM']Well the first issue is that I'm sure your brain is so used to the sound of your old rig that it finds it easier to hear - just like a parent can easily pick our their child's voice amongst a cacophony of other children - we are programmed to be good at hearing familiar sounds, it's just something evolution has done for us because it helps us help our offspring to survive. The second issue is that the sound from a cab exhibits different dispersion at different frequencies. If the cabinet has good dispersion at all frequencies than it will perform much better in difficult acoustics because the direct sound (that going in a straight line from the cab to your ear) is very similar to the reflected sound, so it doesn't matter whether your hearing mostly reflected or mostly direct sound. Although the Compact has better dispersion than a 4x10" or a horizontal 2x10" it does not have as good dispersion as a cab with a midrange driver like the Big One or your old 2x10"+5". Alex[/quote] Thanks Alex, that makes perfect sense. That would explain why my current sound issues are driving me to despair. My drummer said she can't hear me cutting through like I used to, and the guitarist and singer just think I am going mad! So in a nutshell, the Compact is not for me... or I need to put another cab on top of it. What do I do next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 [quote name='jonthebass' post='559202' date='Aug 3 2009, 01:41 PM']Hi Mr.T, To be honest the 2 x Compacts with the SA450 is a great match for me. They do sound slightly different from my old Boogie cabs but I think it was just me getting used to the new speakers. I play in a band with 2 x Marshall's and a LOUD drummer and have the Gain & Volume at 12 o'clock, EQ flat, VLE off and the VPF at about 10 o'clock. The sound is all there and sounding great IMO! To summarize I don't miss the heavier cabs at all and still get the sounds I need, at the volume required. Hope that helps, Jon.[/quote] Thanks Jon, I am glad you are enjoying the SA! I think Alex's last post has hit the nail on the head.... with 2 x Compacts the dispersion thing won't be an isuue for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidmpires Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='559199' date='Aug 3 2009, 01:38 PM']The second issue is that the sound from a cab exhibits different dispersion at different frequencies. If the cabinet has good dispersion at all frequencies than it will perform much better in difficult acoustics because the direct sound (that going in a straight line from the cab to your ear) is very similar to the reflected sound, so it doesn't matter whether your hearing mostly reflected or mostly direct sound. Although the Compact has better dispersion than a 4x10" or a horizontal 2x10" it does not have as good dispersion as a cab with a midrange driver like the Big One or your old 2x10"+5". Alex[/quote] Alex would that meant that for the OP to be able to cut through the 4x12 and the loud drummer he should be using another cab on top with good dispersion on the midrange frequencies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 [quote name='Mr.T' post='559207' date='Aug 3 2009, 01:45 PM']So in a nutshell, the Compact is not for me... or I need to put another cab on top of it.[/quote] Five options really - stack a Midget or Midget T on top. Stack another Compact on top. Swap the Compact for a Big One. Swap the Compact for a Double Midget T. Or get something else entirely. As your band is LOUD and your amp isn't hugely powerful I'm starting to think the Big One won't be the right move - for a band that loud you need more like 750W+. The Midget or Midget T on top seems appealling to me - it'll be louder and more midrangey that the Compact on its own and you'll hear it better because of the height. Two Compacts will be loud and easy to hear - to see if this approach has enough midrange and top for you, try the Compact on its own but lifted up on top of something about 2' high. I think the forthcoming Double Midget T could work rather well as a small-ish one cab solution - I'd think you'd want the tweeter with that to improve the dispersion of the highs as it won't have the height of a two cab stack. Personally I'd go for the Midget T + Compact to get the sound and volume you need. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='559258' date='Aug 3 2009, 02:44 PM']Personally I'd go for the Midget T + Compact to get the sound and volume you need. Alex[/quote] If you are right about the dispersion thing (and I think you are), then probably for all these years I have been listening (on stage) to the 5" horn in my old Trace. With my more recent set-ups, I must have been turning up louder in an attempt to hear myself... hence all the booming and brittle mids thing going on! I am inclined to agree that I would need a small cab as well as the Compact (to get my top end back, and be able to hear myself clearly), but I really can't afford to chuck any more cash into this. I struggled to justify buying the Compact, but genuinely believed it was going to be the answer to my recent (post Trace) problems. This has been an informative, but expensive learning curve, and I hope that others can/will learn from my mistakes and misconceptions! I am going to have a think about this, and what to do next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 [quote name='Mr.T' post='559277' date='Aug 3 2009, 03:12 PM']I am going to have a think about this, and what to do next.[/quote] Give your drummer some lighter sticks and tell your guitarist to turn down or chip in towards another cab or chiropractic fees! Even if your guitarist won't turn down much, if he'll just free up some space in the high midrange for you then the problem will be solved. Easier said than done but so worth trying! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Have you tried placing the cab on something out of interest? Getting your cab more toward head/chest height will mean that higher frequecies will reach your ears a lot easier. Your drummer may also appreciate this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='559281' date='Aug 3 2009, 03:18 PM']Even if your guitarist won't turn down much, if he'll just free up some space in the high midrange for you then the problem will be solved. Easier said than done but so worth trying! Alex[/quote] +1 Ive been having trouble cutting through the mix with my band recently (2x guitarists, loud drummer and keyboards, so not the easiest to find sonic space with) and I sat with my guitarists and got them to drop the bass on thier amps a bit. Now im finding I sit in the mix a lot better and we complement each other a hell of a lot more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 [quote name='charic' post='559289' date='Aug 3 2009, 03:32 PM']Have you tried placing the cab on something out of interest? Getting your cab more toward head/chest height will mean that higher frequecies will reach your ears a lot easier. Your drummer may also appreciate this [/quote] I agree that this is definitely worth trying, the highs from the Compact will be much more directional than those from that 5" mid in your old TE. Point the speaker at your ears! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Mr T - your band must be seriously loud. You need another cab, but it doesn't have to be expensive. Try any other 8 ohm cabs you already have paired with the compact, don't worry about matching drivers - if it works, who cares? You will get more volume and the top cab will be closer to your ears and the LM2 should be loud enough through 2 cabs. I have used an LM2 with a compact type 15" cab paired with an Ashdown mag 15 or 2x10 and found both set ups work fine with plenty of volume and my band isn't exactly quiet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 We are loud, but I wouldn't say 'seriously' loud. Having said that, I never (ever) struggled to get the tone I wanted out of my Trace rig.... anywhere! Also, I never (ever) struggled to hear it! I used it with this band and a full on blues band with 2 x guitarists, keyboard and horns... without a single problem. No constant messing around with EQ. No putting things on boxes, tilting speakers or asking anyone else to play more quietly, etc. I think I have just answered my own question as to what to do next..... Buy another Trace rig, and a trolley! The band will just have to help me out with carrying... which was all I wanted to avoid in the first place. This whole lightweight thing has gotten silly, and god only knows how much I have spent? I am kicking myself for selling my mint condition Trace for £500, when I can't even get a decent speaker for that. Alex... I will take you up on your return policy, unless someone else wants to buy it directly from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 I have trouble with all this.. I run 400watts bridged and the 15 now fills the room and the 10's do the cutting If I have a gig where the gtr truns up with a 4x12..well, I can't remember the last time that happened... but I would not be impressed. Mesaboogies are too loud, ditto Fender twins and I am just not interested in gigs with ringing ears anymore.. I learnt that lesson with 4000watts of foldback, the sound on stage was bollocking and the drummer and I were talking just above normal... Nothing would p*** me off on a gig than a totally unnecessary wall of sound from the gtr.. Keys also need to learn to stay out of your mix... With a small-ish PA, the band just sends bleeds for a mix... a 4x12 belongs on a decent sound stage. Most gtrs I play with use a power soak as well..thank god... Any hearing problems I have are down to me not knowing all this long ago.... Basically the venues are too small for most bands, IMV... and I don't want to go deaf.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Bear in mind that just as my various models sound different, so do Trace Elliot ones - plus you have the variable of your 20 year old cabs vs the current ones, which are likely to be totally different, especially as none of them have midrange drivers! If you're not 'seriously loud' then maybe the Big One will do the job? It certainly has the advantage of a seriously punchy midrange driver. Hang onto the Compact for a moment and I'll send you one later this week so you can see if it works. As it has wheels the extra size shouldn't be a portability issue at all. I do think that when it comes to changing gear you need to be patient - you need time to suss it out for yourself which is why I'm changing the trial period to a month (it's on the new site but I haven't done the switchover yet). And step away from the EQ - it is rarely the answer, bar a little tweak here and there. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Wow....this is a very busy topic. I currently play in an extremely loud band. We practice at stupid volumes. I dont want to, but the guitarist like the big 4x12s to have plenty of ommph. So yes, even though im sensible and want less volume, Im not getting it yet! I just wear ear protection. So yes, I compete with 2 Marshall 60W valve heads through 2 x (4x12) and a hardcore punk drummer. One of the 4x12s is Orange...and they are seriously f***ing loud. The loudest guitar cab ive ever experienced. I'd say we make a very tight, heavy wall of sound. What do I use? Mainly backline provided, (usually crap old cabs and knackered amps) or I take my LM3 and use a backline cab. Never had volume problems. Not even with my old Trace SMX400W head that I sold..that never went above about 1 o'clock. New styles of cabs do take a while to adjust. My new Berg HS410 has literally stunned me now I've used it properly. Stunning clarity, volume and definition. Its a totally different style of sound, and picks up all of your mistakes because its so precise, but wow what a sound. I have joined a much quieter band on the side, and I want a small modular or one cab solution that is neo. This will save hassle and effort, and hopefully means I can carry everything myself. The journey has just started for me. I want to know everything before I make the move though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='559258' date='Aug 3 2009, 02:44 PM']As your band is LOUD and your amp isn't hugely powerful I'm starting to think the Big One won't be the right move - for a band that loud you need more like 750W+. Personally I'd go for the Midget T + Compact to get the sound and volume you need. Alex[/quote] Now I am (even more) confused! ... and my Trace was only rated at 250w @ 4 ohms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinson Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 [quote name='ezbass' post='559025' date='Aug 3 2009, 10:28 AM']I just wanted to add my experience of going from a normal sized head with two 2x10s to a lightweight head and lightweight 2x12 single cab solution (Markbass LMII and Schroeder 1212L 4ohm). Couldn't be happier, best FOH and on stage sound I've ever had and enough volume to bludgeon my loud 7 piece covers band if they get too unruly. I guess it either works for you or it doesn't. My only tiny complaint is the visual element 'cos let's be honest a big old head on top of a 6 or 8x10 is a sight to behold. If we had roadies and the associated transport I'd be going for a dirty great big Aguilar rig, but as we don't, my back and car are more than satisfied with the current solution.[/quote] ditto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 I'll admit that I'm not 100% convinced by the lightweight revolution, but I'm looking forward to trying the Compact doing the rounds. It might help change my mind..! As an aside, I'd like to give Alex an A+ for tackling Mr. T's issues head-on. Fingers crossed for a resolution everyone is happy with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Mr T have you tried sticking a couple of bricks in the bottom then its not a lightweight amp anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 [quote name='Mr.T' post='559564' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:42 PM']Now I am (even more) confused! ... and my Trace was only rated at 250w @ 4 ohms.[/quote] But you were using two high sensitivity cabs with it. The Compact has similar sensitivity to one of them, actually probably a fair bit more, but not as much as both together. 300W from your LMII won't be quite as loud. I still think a lot of this is psychoacoustics due to having that old bass sound so thoroughly ingrained. Anyway, I'll get a Big One off to you on Wednesday and we'll see how that works out! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 I've read this with a great deal of interest. Firstly I think you are after a very different bass sound to me. I think you would be helped a great deal by a very mild overdrive maybe, to add a bit of harmonic colour to the far cleaner sound that you are getting now. It would also provide a tiny bit of compression (as is the nature of overdrive) and that would also help. I very very rarely suggest boosting frequencies first, but in your case I think you'd be helped by a cut right down around 40Hz(ish) and a healthy boost around about 200-300Hz. I know I'm not there, I dont have your ears and I am not in the rooms you are in. These are therefore wild guesses based upon the things I didnt like about old bass cabs (including TE), that are now not an issue for me - kind of reverse psychology I have played through a Compact though, and it did actually remind me of an old TE 15 kind of sound, but deeper, and cleaner.... This may be a totally unhelpful post, - just say if it is - but Compacts do take to eq-ing, and not having a tweeter a little overdrive would go a very long way without being noticeable or in any way fizzy. As for the TE always working, I always found them a trial - weird isnt it! Best of luck with this, your tone is achievable with this gear I'm sure, its just a PIA working out how to do it reliably. I've been there for quite opposite reasons! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 The main lesson to come out of this tale of woe is not to sell your old rig until you are completely happy with the new one, especially if you loved the sound of the old one. No two rigs sound the same, but the LM2 is the closest I found to the tone of my old TE and it's louder. Compact style lightweight neo cabs are fantastic IMO and I wouldn't go back to the old heavy cabs in a hurry. Two 15s are ideal, I just use one for small gigs and take both for bigger ones. There is more than enough volume for stage monitoring and FOH at any pub type gig, with the DI into a PA for large halls. It took a while for me to get used to the new set up after the Trace while I spent ages fiddling with eq to try and get the same old sound. Now I don't touch the eq because I can get my sound just with the filters, but that may not be so easy for other tone types. I tried a lot of amps and cabs before settling on the LM2 and two 15s and I've still got the old TE as a back up, but it hasn't left the house in the past year. My new sound isn't quite as meaty as the old one, but it's a worthwhile compromise for me and I've come to prefer the tighter more controlled sound. Mr T's problem is tricky and I wish him all the best in finding a solution - I think it may be a simple matter of adding another cab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 [quote name='51m0n' post='559675' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:26 PM']I very very rarely suggest boosting frequencies first, but in your case I think you'd be helped by a cut right down around 40Hz(ish) and a healthy boost around about 200-300Hz.[/quote] Im sorry but I have to disagree with the 200-300Hz. All i have ever found in that area is sheer boom. Top Mid would be my suggestion or around 800-1k. Although you may then be fighting the guitards a bit there. The kick will be lost with a boost around 200-300Hz IIRC. Been a little while since Ive done any mixing but I usually cut those frequencies on pretty much everything by atleast a little bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 [quote name='redstriper' post='559682' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:30 PM']Mr T's problem is tricky and I wish him all the best in finding a solution - I think it may be a simple matter of adding another cab.[/quote] Thanks Steve, Yes another cab on top will solve the problem of top end and being able to hear myself, I could just put my Ashdown on the Compact, but... That puts me right back where I was with the Aggie & Ashdown set-up, which was at times superb but inconsistant! It totally defeats the reason I bought the Compact, i.e to be a one cab solution.... which as it turns out, it isn't (for me). I am not knocking the Compact, for what it is, i.e... A loud portable 1x15. However, I was led to believe it was a full range cabinet.... It isn't! I thought it would replace both my cabs.... It doesn't! I want my Trace (or something similar) back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 [quote name='Mr.T' post='559750' date='Aug 3 2009, 10:38 PM']Thanks Steve, Yes another cab on top will solve the problem of top end and being able to hear myself, I could just put my Ashdown on the Compact, but... That puts me right back where I was with the Aggie & Ashdown set-up, which was at times superb but inconsistant! It totally defeats the reason I bought the Compact, i.e to be a one cab solution.... which as it turns out, it isn't (for me). I am not knocking the Compact, for what it is, i.e... A loud portable 1x15. However, I was led to believe it was a full range cabinet.... It isn't! I thought it would replace both my cabs.... It doesn't! I want my Trace (or something similar) back![/quote] Awww man....I feel bad for you! I hate it when you sell then regret. Even though I will use my smaller / lighter cabs more when I get them, im keeping my old ones. Even though thats being greedy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.T Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 [quote name='Musicman20' post='559779' date='Aug 3 2009, 10:53 PM']Awww man....I feel bad for you![/quote] Thanks, I am a very patient man, but this is starting to do my head in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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