Making keys and bass work together

[Lozz196]

Or have a change of thought on the role the bass takes in this particular band, moving to a more supportive instrument laying down a rock solid foundation with the drums. 
 

A band I really like that had keys was Rainbow and the various bassists although they played interesting lines they were def supporting the rest of the band really well.

Edited 11 hours ago by Lozz196

[dave_bass5]

1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

 

Wrong on several counts, I'm afraid.

 

I don’t follow your post, but no need to be sorry, you are welcome to your option of course.

You finish off with a reference that I first made, saying it can be done with some thought. Well isn't that what it's all about, working together?

 

I NEVER said the bass player should change a set in stone part to accommodate the keyboard player, but if a keyboard part is written for two hands then they need to be aware of it, and again, work together. 

Ive played keys in a band where the bass player never bothered to really work out the songs, and would clash with not only me, but the guitarist as well as his notes were off. Are we supposed to stop playing anything in the low register to accommodate this?

 

Also having the bass player use a tone that works with keys is definitely a step forward. Too many bass players use a muddy tone that leaves no definition in the low end. Even kick drums can get smothered by the wrong tone. Then there are the other lot that insisting on playing all over the spectrum.

 

As for 'no keyboard part is set in stone', that made me laugh. Again, blanket statements make no sense. There are 1000's of keyboard based songs where the keyboards are very much set in stone. Two we are doing at the moment are You do something to me and Angels. Are you seriously suggestion I change the parts because they are tow hand songs?

 

I totally get the playing at home is different argument though. when I switched to keys and looked for some tutorials for some songs it was all piano stuff, no help for learning the actual songs for a band. That I totally get, but not all keyboard players do that and my argument is more against blanket statements. 

 

 

 

[gjones]

Piano/keys are good to have in a band but there has to be discipline to stop the bottom end getting muddy. I would recommend listening to Fleetwood Mac to see how they incorporate both bass and piano, without stepping on each others toes.

[Dan Dare]

10 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

I don’t follow your post, but no need to be sorry, you are welcome to your option of course.

You finish off with a reference that I first made, saying it can be done with some thought. Well isn't that what it's all about, working together?

 

I NEVER said the bass player should change a set in stone part to accommodate the keyboard player, but if a keyboard part is written for two hands then they need to be aware of it, and again, work together. 

Ive played keys in a band where the bass player never bothered to really work out the songs, and would clash with not only me, but the guitarist as well as his notes were off. Are we supposed to stop playing anything in the low register to accommodate this?

 

Also having the bass player use a tone that works with keys is definitely a step forward. Too many bass players use a muddy tone that leaves no definition in the low end. Even kick drums can get smothered by the wrong tone. Then there are the other lot that insisting on playing all over the spectrum.

 

As for 'no keyboard part is set in stone', that made me laugh. Again, blanket statements make no sense. There are 1000's of keyboard based songs where the keyboards are very much set in stone. Two we are doing at the moment are You do something to me and Angels. Are you seriously suggestion I change the parts because they are tow hand songs?

 

I totally get the playing at home is different argument though. when I switched to keys and looked for some tutorials for some songs it was all piano stuff, no help for learning the actual songs for a band. That I totally get, but not all keyboard players do that and my argument is more against blanket statements.

 

I'm not worried. It's good of you to allow me my own opinion.

 

I see you're a keyboard player. Enough said, really. I'll just reiterate that there is a world of difference between playing solo piano, organ or whatever, where you need to provide a melody, chordal accompaniment and bass part, and playing in a band context, where nobody is the centre of the universe. 

[dave_bass5]

3 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

 

I'm not worried. It's good of you to allow me my own opinion.

 

I see you're a keyboard player. Enough said, really. I'll just reiterate that there is a world of difference between playing solo piano, organ or whatever, where you need to provide a melody, chordal accompaniment and bass part, and playing in a band context, where nobody is the centre of the universe. 

I dont disagree with any of that, but that's not what ive been posting about. 

[deepbass5]

4 hours ago, SimonK said:

Keyboardists who play a lot on their own get used to playing all the basslines with their left hand so stopping them doing this in a band situation is a challenge. 

 

Exactly this. 

Some know what their roll should be in a band situation others do not.  For me they should cover Keyboard based tunes as a Pianist and everyone else steps back. In other pieces they should be handling the Brass, Sax and string parts. 

[TimR]

The keys and bass need to meet separately to work on an arrangement that works for both of them.

 

With experienced musicians this can be done on the fly as they both will adjust using their ears. 

 

 

Edited 9 hours ago by TimR

[BassTractor]

2 minutes ago, TimR said:

The keys and bass need to meet separately to work on an arrangement that works for both of them.

That's exactly what we did in basso continuo: longstrings person and keys person got together for a little chat before playing the piece.

Ha. I'd never known that modern bands are just like baroque orchestras!  🙂

[dave_bass5]

22 hours ago, ezbass said:

I get the joke, but I use my left had (with keyboard split) to do a lot of brass/string stuff. If the bass player wants to do that (and I know how some love those silly synth pedals) go ahead, otherwise............

[SteveXFR]

Thanks for all the tips. The keyboard player and bass are going to work on both their arrangements and tones to give each other more space and work together better.

[ian61]

6 hours ago, chris_b said:

Yesterday I played at a festival and the FOH was boomy and indistinct. The bass drum drowned out the bass! The sound guys didn't seem to have a clue

Cant think of a festival in recent years which was any different.  This boom and bust mixing thing is the pits. Times I've sidled over to the desk, pint in hand but then thought better of it. But yes totally agree the vast majority of "sound guys" haven't a clue.

[Greg Edwards69]

Look up frequency slotting. At the very least, put an hpf on the keys around 80-100hz. The low notes will still be there, they just won't have as much energy and keep them out of the subs, if there are any.

[TimR]

On 02/08/2025 at 16:24, SteveXFR said:

We're in need of some advice. 

My daughter is in a band where she plays bass and they also have keys, guitar, vocals and drums. The recordings work really well and everything comes through nicely but live, the bass quite often gets lost and im wondering whether sound techs are struggling to differentiate between the low end of the keys and the bass. Are there any tips to make them work together live reliably and make it easy for the sound tech?

Here's an example of one of their songs for reference. 

 

 

 

OK. I've listened to that and in my opinion that song works really well arrangement-wise amd sounds really tight with nothing wrong.

 

So I went in search of more examples and found a live one from a few months ago. Others can search if they're that bothered. 

 

1. The keyboard player has a full size 7 octave stage piano! 😳

 

In the video I've watched they're really bashing out the same notes as the bass, with double octaves. I think they're used to playing alone and have a bit to learn about ensemble work.

 

In that situation the keys needs to chill, absolutely no need for those notes, and playing like that will clutter up the sound space because they won't be exactly in time, and any 'groove' (playing ahead or behind the beat) from the bass player will be lost. Especially when the drums are joining in. 

 

I suspect the video you have posted was recorded with protools and has had all the notes quantized and aligned. So live it probably sounds quite a 'mess', and that's probably more the problem.

 

So yes, get the bass and keys to meet up separately from the rest of the band and have a sensible chat about bottom end arrangements.

 

Is that a 5-string bass there as well?

 

 

[SteveXFR]

She has got a 5 but generally just uses her Fender MIM Jazz 4 string.

This issue has become more noticeable since they've started playing bigger stages with big subs in the PA. Its not an issue in smaller venues, the bass cuts through nicely there.

[Dan Dare]

3 minutes ago, SteveXFR said:

She has got a 5 but generally just uses her Fender MIM Jazz 4 string.

This issue has become more noticeable since they've started playing bigger stages with big subs in the PA. Its not an issue in smaller venues, the bass cuts through nicely there.

 

The better the gear, the more noticeable the clash between keys left hand and bass will be. Our keys player recently upgraded his backline to a quality powered PA cab and we suddenly had problems. His old amp simply wasn't capable of reproducing the low end loudly or clearly enough for the issue to be noticed.

[dave_bass5]

7 minutes ago, SteveXFR said:

She has got a 5 but generally just uses her Fender MIM Jazz 4 string.

This issue has become more noticeable since they've started playing bigger stages with big subs in the PA. Its not an issue in smaller venues, the bass cuts through nicely there.

The first time I played keys through a big PA I got a shock at how much low end I had. I backed it off immediately and keep it in check these days. 

[TimR]

53 minutes ago, SteveXFR said:

She has got a 5 but generally just uses her Fender MIM Jazz 4 string.

This issue has become more noticeable since they've started playing bigger stages with big subs in the PA. Its not an issue in smaller venues, the bass cuts through nicely there.

 

Yes. It's really 'noisy'. 

 

They're all 'youngsters' and clearly having fun.

 

I'd say when you have big powerful PA behind you, you can afford not to smash your instruments hard and reign in the passion a little bit. 

 

It may be that the arrangements aren't that far off, its the loudness wars and exuberance that may be pushing the envelope.

 

The drummer is also hitting lots of open cymbals.

 

There's a balance between musicality and full out punk. 

 

Love the violin, but that also needs to be arranged around so everything else doesn't crowd it out. Make it a feature, everyone else doesnt need to be louder than the violin.

 

Hopefully this is positive criticism. Its about having a mature outlook to what is the feature instrument, or vocal, at any point, and what are backing instruments.  

[TimR]

55 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

The first time I played keys through a big PA I got a shock at how much low end I had. I backed it off immediately and keep it in check these days. 

 

Piano is a full range solo instrument capable of being the only accompaniment  required. 

 

My dad has been playing piano for 75 years. When he calls me for backup, he says, its great to have a good bass player who understands chord structure, I can't be doing that driving left hand stuff all night. 🤣

 

 

[dave_bass5]

2 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

Piano is a full range solo instrument capable of being the only accompaniment  required. 

 

My dad has been playing piano for 75 years. When he calls me for backup, he says, its great to have a good bass player who understands chord structure, I can't be doing that driving left hand stuff all night. 🤣

 

 

By 'key's' I mean synth mostly. Those low Feqs can knock buildings down 🤣

 

[Dood]

As a teenager, figuring out where bass fits with other instruments, the Queen back catalogue offered a great deal of insight. I learned to play unison with that piano left hand, move out of its way or make room for striding lines. In later life playing in prog bands, it was noticed and some of the fattest riffs came not from distorted guitars but rock solid piano and bass  

[paul_5]

“When they go low, we go high”

[SteveXFR]

They're definitely learning that a big PA is very different to a club PA and it shows up things that just weren't a problem before like the occasional string touching a pickup is barely audible on a small PA but its like a punch in the face on a big PA. Fortunately, they're quite mature for teenagers and learning quickly and keen to adapt. 

They played another festival today and went down really well, the organisers want them back next year.