Sanity Check - 4 to 5 string conversion

[SamIAm]

So ...

5 string short scale ... not many around (Well not in a price bracket I can consider) so naturally a question popped into my head ...

 

"I wonder if I could perform some alchemy on a Harley Benton PB Shorty"

 

So I set out to doing some figuring and came up with the following

 

Measurements (thanks @Paul S)

• Nut: 42mm
• 19th Fret: 62.5mm (This is the last fret on the neck)

 

Calculation

On a 760mm (30 inch) scale, the 19th fret is at 506.4mm.

 

This gives outer dimensions of the fretboard as below

 

I used Rotosound Tru Bass Tapewound on the 760mm scale 5 string I built and found the B string tension was good, this gives string diameters of:

• B String (0.135) 3.4mm
• G String (0.060) 1.5mm

 

Allowing for a gap between the edge of the fretboard and the outer string edge as follows:

• B String: 2mm
• G String: 1mm

 

This would give an "outer edge to outer edge" string distance (based on the fret width minus 3mm) of 

• Nut: 39mm
• 19th Fret: 59.5mm
• Bridge: 69.76mm

 

And (assuming the strings are evenly spaced based on their centres) a string spacing at the bridge based on 72.76mm (Bridge width) -3mm (outer edge gap) -1.5mm (half the thckness of the B+G string combined, to get to their centres) / 4 (5 strings means 4 gaps)

• 17mm

 

I've a Hohner 5 string headless (As per my profile pic), the string spacings on it are comfortable (Sadly I'm likely to be putting it up for sale as it is a long scale which is just too big for me!)

 

When I measure its "outer edge to outer edge" string distance I find:

• Nut: 38mm
• 506mm: 55mm (This is where the 19th fret would be if it were a 760mm scale length)
• 760mm: 63mm (This is where the bridge fret would be if it were a 760mm scale length)

 

which gives me hope that my numbers would be playable.

 

I would greatly appreciate feedback on these, have I goofed, missed or overlooked something, etc ... or do they seem sound?

 

S'manth x

 

I recognise that there will be a number of other issues to address such as tuners, pups, bridge but it is the spacing/sizings of the fretboard I am trying to check.

[3below]

12 minutes ago, Smanth said:

... Allowing for a gap between the edge of the fretboard and the outer string edge as follows:

• B String: 2mm
• G String: 1mm

 

This would give an "outer edge to outer edge" string distance (based on the fret width minus 3mm) of 

• Nut: 39mm
• 19th Fret: 59.5mm
• Bridge: 69.76mm

 

And (assuming the strings are evenly spaced based on their centres) a string spacing at the bridge based on 72.76mm (Bridge width) -3mm (outer edge gap) -1.5mm (half the thckness of the B+G string combined, to get to their centres) / 4 (5 strings means 4 gaps)

• 17mm

 

I have a bass with a G string to board edge clearance of 1.5 - 2mm (from memory, the bass is in the bass cave at the moment).  It is all too easy to drop the string off the fret bevel edge with any vibrato / bending.   B8??## annoying to the point that at some point I must get the nut and string spacing reduced.  I would go for 3mm both sides.  This would give you (72.76 -6 - 1.5)/4 =  16.28mm string spacing.  17mm spacing easily playable on one of my basses, 13.5mm on my 'licence plate' build at the limit for me.

[Matt P]

i'm one of the small group that own and play short scale 5 strings, i'll have to look at the numbers later (i have a HB shorty as well that i'm planning to re-body as a jazz when i get round to it)

 

as an alternative option that you might not have considered, one of my short scale 4 strings is an Aria Integra, they have used an interesting build method with this, the neck blank is actually the same as a 34" scale 21 fret neck but with a 30" scale 24 fret board, combined with a small body this makes for an excellent bass. (as an aside this bass is small enough to fit in a standard electric guitar hard case)

 

If you could find a cheap 21 fret 5 string then with a new or modified body and a fretboard it would be possible to build a great 5 string (this was my plan before i chickened out and commissioned my 5 string from Andy)

 

If i get a chance i'll take some photo's and measurements tonight

 

Matt

[Downunderwonder]

6 hours ago, 3below said:

have a bass with a G string to board edge clearance of 1.5 - 2mm (from memory, the bass is in the bass cave at the moment).  It is all too easy to drop the string off the fret bevel edge

Same concern here with the proposed 1mm spare for G.

[Maude]

There's the Ibanez Talman TMB35. 

I touch on the heavy side but a fantastic bass. £230 in Bax at the mo but come up used around £150 if you keep yours eyes peeled. 

[SamIAm]

@3belowand @Downunderwonder, thanks for your thoughts on edge spacing ... I'd not thought about vibe/bending as it is not something I use ... as you say, I can have a "safer" 3mm down each edge and still achieve a playable layout it seems.

 

S'manth x

[SamIAm]

2 hours ago, Maude said:

There's the Ibanez Talman TMB35. 

I touch on the heavy side but a fantastic bass. £230 in Bax at the mo but come up used around £150 if you keep yours eyes peeled. 

Errrmmm … indeed!  I pushed the buttton and one is arriving tomorrow, I’ll have 30 days to see if I like it 

S’manth x

[Maude]

😄

 

They really are cracking little basses. A little on the the heavy side for a shorty but it's got a fairly big body. 

I really like the pickups. 

[SamIAm]

11 minutes ago, Maude said:

😄

 

They really are cracking little basses. A little on the the heavy side for a shorty but it's got a fairly big body. 

I really like the pickups. 

They have some great reviews.  I've been stuck in feeling very ill (nasty cold/flu thing) on my birthday (I was due to go out to watch a friends band this evening) and when I looked at the various options it seemed the best one.  If I take to it, then I'm thinking to lose the head ... which would reduce both the weight and neck dive issues I've read about ... and I love the look of the Ibinez headless ... just not their price point!  And there is a 30 day return policy so ...

 

S'manth x

Edited December 19, 2022 by Smanth

[Maude]

A headless Talman would be cool. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Maude

[tauzero]

Better leave the decapitation until after the 30 days are up.

[SamIAm]

8 minutes ago, tauzero said:

Better leave the decapitation until after the 30 days are up.

Indeed ... not sure I could even attempt a "I'd like to return this bass due to a fault ... its head just suddenly fell off" 😛

 

S'manth x

[velvetkevorkian]

10 hours ago, Maude said:

A headless Talman would be cool. 

I thought this had been done but I'm getting confused about my Ibanez models, it was a Mezzo.

 

I have had a 5 string on a 4 string Precision neck bass*, and my recollection was that it was playable but with very little margin for error -- the nut spacing in particular was very cosy. As others have noted, 1mm on the outside of the G string makes it very easy to pull the string off the edge of the board. I wonder if you could have less space outside of the B and more outside of the G, as IME when fretting you're pushing the string somewhere between straight into the fretboard and towards the floor, but rarely upwards towards the player.

 

*please excuse the crappy pictures and the ink-stained carpet 🙈

 

 

[pineweasel]

29 minutes ago, velvetkevorkian said:

As others have noted, 1mm on the outside of the G string makes it very easy to pull the string off the edge of the board

It's interesting that the Stingray 5, one of the most definitive and popular fives and in production since the late 80s, has exactly this issue. 

[basstone]

On 20/12/2022 at 10:47, velvetkevorkian said:

I thought this had been done but I'm getting confused about my Ibanez models, it was a Mezzo.

 

I have had a 5 string on a 4 string Precision neck bass*, and my recollection was that it was playable but with very little margin for error -- the nut spacing in particular was very cosy. As others have noted, 1mm on the outside of the G string makes it very easy to pull the string off the edge of the board. I wonder if you could have less space outside of the B and more outside of the G, as IME when fretting you're pushing the string somewhere between straight into the fretboard and towards the floor, but rarely upwards towards the player.

 

*please excuse the crappy pictures and the ink-stained carpet 🙈

 

 

This bass looks really cool. I love the way the extra tuner has been installed to maintain straight string lines over the nut. Any chance of more details of the extra string anchor and tuning arrangement?

[Woodinblack]

5 minutes ago, basstone said:

This bass looks really cool. I love the way the extra tuner has been installed to maintain straight string lines over the nut. Any chance of more details of the extra string anchor and tuning arrangement?

 

Hipshot used to make a 4 to 5 string conversion, which that was. I have one upstairs I haven't used that I was going to use on a P bass, but I sold the P bass instead!

[velvetkevorkian]

8 minutes ago, basstone said:

This bass looks really cool. I love the way the extra tuner has been installed to maintain straight string lines over the nut. Any chance of more details of the extra string anchor and tuning arrangement?

I didn't do the mod, but I believe this was a Wilkinson 4+1, similar to this one one Reverb. The string tree has a screw (or an allen bolt, I forget) that holds the D string in place. It was a bit of a pain to string up tbh because the bridge tuner didn't have that much room to wind the string on, so you had to hold the string as tightly as possible with pliers, screw it down, and hope you had enough turns left at the bridge to bring it up to pitch, although once it was up to pitch it worked well enough. If you wanted it to be tidy you had to cut the string right after the string tree, too.

 

It did look very cool, but I could never get a decent sound out of the B string on that particular bass unfortunately (I'm pretty sure there weren't any real Fender parts on it, despite what the headstock says).