casapete Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 (edited) Last night (on a rare Saturday night off !) thought I'd go and see a couple of local pub bands doing covers. The first one I've got a dep with next week - they do classic rock stuff, Stones, T.Rex,Cream etc. The second were doing more indie covers-Kings of Leon, Kaiser Chiefs etc. Both bands were okay, and went down well with the audience. Anyway, why do most bands play covers so much faster than the original versions? Okay, I know that live most of the original bands probably increase the tempos a tad, but cover bands always seem to be off like f**k!! IMHO the majority of great rock songs are written with specific tempos/keys in mind, and altering them just ruins it! Classic example is the Stones 'Honky Tonk Woman' - grooves like hell at the original speed,turns into crap when played too fast. When the drummer in my band is away, I have the job of counting songs in - always do this a bit slow as drummers tend to come in a bit 'bright' despite the count. Always amazed at the difference doing songs at the right tempo can make. Anyone else noticed this,or is it me just being an old fart? Edited April 6, 2009 by casapete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinman Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Fear! I agree though. Our drummer tends to count faster on gig night.......drives me nuts sometimes. I've never found a way around it either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 (edited) Mostly it's down to "nerves". Before counting in think about what you are doing,[i]relax[/i] for a few seconds, don't just rush in. Think of the key part of the song, the riff, the chorus melody etc, and hum a couple of bars to yourself and [i]then[/i] count. Sometimes it may be a little fast or sometimes a little slow but you should be "in the ball park". Steve EDIT: casapete, I know that you weren't after advice, but the tip may be of use to someone. Edited April 5, 2009 by SteveK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 I was asking the same thing last night. I did a gig with a scratch band in which the keyboard player was from a nationally sucessful 80s/90s band. Hecounted every tune in at least 30&% faster than it shoudl have been and everything sounded rushed as a result. I believe that the two most important things in establishing a groove to die for are a, the SOUND (of the bass, the drums etc) and b, the tempo. If either of thise isn't right, the groove will only ever be a 'nearly but not quite'. SteveK's advice is sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PURPOLARIS Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Our drummer has the tempo for every song we play written down and programmed into his metronome thingy that he has attached to his drums. He counts us in using that. We're generally not too far off the tempo that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linus27 Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 [quote name='PURPOLARIS' post='454661' date='Apr 5 2009, 01:44 PM']Our drummer has the tempo for every song we play written down and programmed into his metronome thingy that he has attached to his drums. He counts us in using that. We're generally not too far off the tempo that way.[/quote] Yep, we did this also. Really does help, even to get you starting off at the right tempo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 It's really easy for tempos to get out of hand when you've got so much energy flying around, especially with a great crowd who are spurring you on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 I worked with a guitarist/band leader for a while who might as well have just shouted "go" at the start of each song for allt he good his counting did. He used to do stuff like shout "one. . . .two.three . . . . . . .four". Eventually the band fired him I work with a drummer who has every song written out & plays with a click feeding into his in-ear monitors. His timing is great & he often tells us that the tempo we want to learn something is faster than the original - he's ALWAYS right about this too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 [quote name='casapete' post='454600' date='Apr 5 2009, 12:25 PM']Anyway, why do most bands play covers so much faster than the original versions? Okay, I know that live most of the original bands probably increase the tempos a tad, but cover bands always seem to be off like f**k!! IMHO the majority of great rock songs are written with specific tempos/keys in mind, and altering them just ruins it! Classic example is the Stones 'Honky Tonk Woman' - grooves like hell at the original speed,turns into crap when played too fast.[/quote] I have constantly griped about this in several bands (and sometimes get support from others). Over and over again I say 'It's too fast, it's got no dance, it's just running off, no feel'. Sometimes, if I'm copying the original bassline which for a standard tune I might well do, I have to say 'I can't play this line that fast' and then before I'm accused of being not good enough to play it 'that fast' I have to point out that the line was not written to be played that fast and if the song was going to be that fast it would have had a different bassline. If you are going to play a song at a faster (or slower) tempo you won't necessarily use the same line at that altered tempo, it may need a different line. Am I right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 [quote name='SteveK' post='454640' date='Apr 5 2009, 01:21 PM']Mostly it's down to "nerves". Before counting in think about what you are doing,[i]relax[/i] for a few seconds, don't just rush in. Think of the key part of the song, the riff, the chorus melody etc, and hum a couple of bars to yourself and [i]then[/i] count. Sometimes it may be a little fast or sometimes a little slow but you should be "in the ball park". Steve EDIT: casapete, I know that you weren't after advice, but the tip may be of use to someone.[/quote] +1. I'd say that's very good advice - but it only works if you have some grasp of the correct tempo in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obbm Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 [quote name='casapete' post='454600' date='Apr 5 2009, 12:25 PM']Anyone else noticed this,or is it me just being an old fart?[/quote] Yes I had noticed it No you are not. I was thinking of posting about this problem this very afternoon. We have this very same problem. It's not only bass parts that suffe. If the tempo is too fast then the vocalist can't actually get all the words out. Unfortunately I don't know what the answer is because he does it with his other bands as well. I like the idea of a click-in-the-ear but would he wear it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 I think most people who play too fast mistake fast for exciting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepurpleblob Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 It's genetic or something. I think you always tend to remember a song faster than it actually is. It's really surprising/educational with a lot of songs to get the tempo spot on with a metronome and realise how slow some are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s_u_y_* Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 +1... It bugs me a lot when I hear a cover played like 30bpm faster than the original. Usually kills it stone dead. I think that some people just have only the concept of playing those notes, and just forget or are ignorant to the idea they're in the context of a song. One that stands out as particularly bad is when I hear Muse's Hysteria being played at a gazillion bpm. Completely ruins the groove and the different pushes and pulls of the accents natural to the line are completely lost. I think a lot of people mix up the idea of complicated and fast too often! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casapete Posted April 6, 2009 Author Share Posted April 6, 2009 [quote name='EssentialTension' post='454992' date='Apr 5 2009, 10:49 PM']I have constantly griped about this in several bands (and sometimes get support from others). Over and over again I say 'It's too fast, it's got no dance, it's just running off, no feel'. Sometimes, if I'm copying the original bassline which for a standard tune I might well do, I have to say 'I can't play this line that fast' and then before I'm accused of being not good enough to play it 'that fast' I have to point out that the line was not written to be played that fast and if the song was going to be that fast it would have had a different bassline. If you are going to play a song at a faster (or slower) tempo you won't necessarily use the same line at that altered tempo, it may need a different line. Am I right?[/quote] Spot on. Lots of soul/Motown songs are examples of this - play them too fast and the wonderful basslines lose all their meaning/relevance to the song etc. So often I have to adjust the line accordingly. Stuff with a 16's feel seems to get drummers off on one! And songs played in 8's really suffer from being too fast! Maybe we should compile a list of tunes that suffer the most from excess speed (!) - will kick off with a few obvious ones from my experience with covers bands - Honky Tonk Woman Everybody needs somebody (Blues Bros) The Best Living on a prayer Mustang Sally Chelsea dagger Like a virgin My girl Sunshine of your love Smoke on the water Signed sealed delivered Summer of 69 etc etc....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 [quote name='casapete' post='455619' date='Apr 6 2009, 04:11 PM']Spot on. Lots of soul/Motown songs are examples of this - play them too fast and the wonderful basslines lose all their meaning/relevance to the song etc. So often I have to adjust the line accordingly. Stuff with a 16's feel seems to get drummers off on one! And songs played in 8's really suffer from being too fast! Maybe we should compile a list of tunes that suffer the most from excess speed (!) - will kick off with a few obvious ones from my experience with covers bands - Honky Tonk Woman Everybody needs somebody (Blues Bros) The Best Living on a prayer Mustang Sally Chelsea dagger Like a virgin My girl Sunshine of your love Smoke on the water Signed sealed delivered Summer of 69 etc etc.......[/quote] Anything and everything by Chuck Berry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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