Mzungu71 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 It's got the right number of strings, put me down for a couple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 bugger. This cant go anywere then without the license otherwise basschat is gunna be in sh*t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stockholm Syndrome Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Just want to clarify that I DON'T want to participate in the lottery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderthumbs Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 Dear all, I have just spoken to the licensing section of my local council and I'm afraid it's a non-starter. The issues (as have already been raised by a couple of legal eagle BCers) are: 1. It is classed as a lottery, therefore a lottery license would have to be applied for. 2. The application would be immediately rejected as the proceeds of the lottery are not for charitable use. 3. If it were to generate money for charity at the same time, to raise enough money for me to take £1000 out of it would mean collectively we could buy a Bugatti Veyron! 4. Since none of you are my immediately family, I couldn't have a "private" raffle. So in short, it's not going to happen. I said to Ped right at the start I didn't want to step into areas of illegality and put him and the other admin/mods of Basschat in the brown stuff. Personally, I think it's a shame we can't find a solution in the long term (although maybe someone can?) as I think it could've been a good way of getting gear moved around in these leaner times. Since no transactions have taken place, I would imagine no laws have been broken, we've just basically had a big debate, an open discussion. Thanks everyone for your input, especially Simon and Noel. Cheers, Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 probably best this is just closed. Real shame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galilee Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='Thunderthumbs' post='379293' date='Jan 13 2009, 04:41 PM']Since no transactions have taken place, I would imagine no laws have been broken[/quote] You're wrong, we're all going to do a stretch for talking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MythSte Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Stuff like this that really irritates me as far as law goes. I can clearly see why theyve done it but a bit of initiative wouldnt go a miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Bah! Read through the whole thread with the intention of getting on board, only to hear the bad news at the end. Never mind. I would have wanted a ticket, but fair enough. I was also going to suggest that our favourite Warwick Vampyre seller draw the raffle :ph34r: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubs Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Mike' post='379345' date='Jan 13 2009, 05:06 PM']I was also going to suggest that our favourite Warwick Vampyre seller draw the raffle :ph34r:[/quote] Best idea yet! It's a real shame this can't happen. What does the law say about the possibility that the raffle/lottery could take place at one of the larger Basschat bashes? If 100 people pay a tenner cash on the day and the draw is made on the day, would that be legal? Also, it would mean that everyone who entered would be an eyewitness to the draw, and logistically and from an admin point of view it would be so much easier to organise… Edited January 13, 2009 by benwhiteuk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='benwhiteuk' post='379379' date='Jan 13 2009, 05:32 PM'] Best idea yet! It's a real shame this can't happen. What does the law say about the possibility that the raffle/lottery could take place at one of the larger Basschat bashes? If 100 people pay a tenner cash on the day and the draw is made on the day, would that be legal? Also, it would mean that everyone who entered would be an eyewitness to the draw, and logistically and from an admin point of view it would be so much easier to organise…[/quote] That would make sense as there are raffles held in Church halls up and down the country... they can't be illegal! Or is it the value and destination of proceeds that dictates if it can go ahead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderthumbs Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='warwickhunt' post='379386' date='Jan 13 2009, 05:37 PM']That would make sense as there are raffles held in Church halls up and down the country... they can't be illegal! Or is it the value and destination of proceeds that dictates if it can go ahead?[/quote] From what I was told by my licensing section, yes. As the proceeds would be going squarely in my pocket, it's effectively illegal. Even if I were to "invite" people to a private club, the invitees are still classed as "the general public" so I would still require a license. I've received an offer should this have fallen through, so in this case, I think for me, ped and other admin of Basschat that's the best route to go down. I still think it's something worth looking at for the future, and something I might spend a bit of spare time trying to resolve. Cheers, Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ash_sak Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Damn that law, even i have a tenner and i'm skint. Good plan though, for going to all this effort though someone might now pop up and offer the full 1000. I hope you manage to find a buyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='warwickhunt' post='379386' date='Jan 13 2009, 05:37 PM']That would make sense as there are raffles held in Church halls up and down the country... they can't be illegal! Or is it the value and destination of proceeds that dictates if it can go ahead?[/quote] In general terms, church or social club lotteries/raffles are allowable where all moneys raised are given over for charitable purposes - after deduction of statutorily sanctioned classes of expenses. The reason that the proposed scheme does not meet - and could never meet - the statutory requirements is that the moneys would be construed as being raised for "private gain". Private gain has a much wider definition than that of profit, and irrespective of where and when the lottery/raffle where to be held and drawn, as long as the main purpose is not charitable it would be construed as illegal gaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ash_sak Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote]The reason that the proposed scheme does not meet - and could never meet - the statutory requirements is that the moneys would be construed as being raised for "private gain". Private gain has a much wider definition than that of profit, and irrespective of where and when the lottery/raffle where to be held and drawn, as long as the main purpose is not charitable it would be construed as illegal gaming.[/quote] Could it not be done that charity was the purpose, with the bass as the prize and the cost to cover being the 1000 for the bass. If you define a charity beforehand and actually raise over the 1000 quid then would that be possible? Though there is the question of how much is classed as a donation to charity given you have 1000 to cover costs. Though i think charities would want any money they can get Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubs Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Could Thunderthumbs register himself as a charity?... :brow: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
originalfunster Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 (edited) Why cant you have a Prize Draw? you get your 100 people to pay a tenner, set a question on the forum, those 100 people give thier answer, put all names and correct answers into the hat, and pick one at random. and the prize for the correct answer is........ your warwick? thats not a Lottery or a Raffle Edited January 13, 2009 by originalfunster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='originalfunster' post='379461' date='Jan 13 2009, 06:35 PM']Why cant you have a Prize Draw? you get your 100 people to pay a tenner, set a question on the forum, those 100 people give thier answer, put all names and correct answers into the hat, and pick one at random. and the prize for the correct answer is........ your warwick?[/quote] interesting, law'ish people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deaver Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 My own warped take on this: A well known BassChat photographer takes a photo of my bass (or similar) adorning a girl with her top off. A numbered set of prints are made up, let's say 100. I sell the prints at £10 a pop. I give the said bass to someone possessing a lucky number. Not sure I've smoothed the rough edges on this one but I enjoyed thinking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathewsanchez Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Thunderthumbs' post='379293' date='Jan 13 2009, 04:41 PM']4. Since none of you are my immediately family, I couldn't have a "private" raffle.[/quote] You could adopt us all. Edited January 13, 2009 by mathewsanchez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GremlinAndy Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='benwhiteuk' post='378419' date='Jan 12 2009, 11:00 PM']I think you've just defined what a lottery is?[/quote] no. there would be 100 owners. They all just agree that one person keeps it at their house ...indefinitely. How is that a lottery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hivez Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [url="http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/Client/detail.asp?Contentid=175"]http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/Clien...p?Contentid=175[/url] Looks to me we could run it as Private Society Lottery according to the Gambling Commission. Or have I read it wrong. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubs Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='GremlinAndy' post='379482' date='Jan 13 2009, 06:49 PM']no. there would be 100 owners. They all just agree that one person keeps it at their house ...indefinitely. How is that a lottery?[/quote] The name is drawn out of a hat at random. To me that sounds like a lottery with 100/1 chance of “winning”. Anyhow, if I wasn’t “nominated” to keep the bass at my house then I wouldn’t agree to it being kept at anyone else’s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesfinn Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 surely if its all illegal, then everybody could 'club together' to buy the bass so that it would technically be owned by all the people who paid. that would then jsut be a straight sale right? then its up to those people to decide if they want to 'give' the bass to one person and theyre way of doing so is to draw the names out of a hat to make it fair, that way there is no financial profit gained, it's just a bunch of nice people who decided that they would give away theyre share in something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderthumbs Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 [quote name='wesfinn' post='379582' date='Jan 13 2009, 08:07 PM']surely if its all illegal, then everybody could 'club together' to buy the bass so that it would technically be owned by all the people who paid. that would then jsut be a straight sale right? then its up to those people to decide if they want to 'give' the bass to one person and theyre way of doing so is to draw the names out of a hat to make it fair, that way there is no financial profit gained, it's just a bunch of nice people who decided that they would give away theyre share in something.[/quote] As I think it was noelk27 who pointed it out, it doesn't matter how you try to paint it, the "law" sees it another way, and as such it would still be defined as a lottery. Anyway, as I said earlier, I've an offer to consider, and after my consultation with my local authority I'm going to follow that up and put this "raffle/lottery" to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misrule Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 (edited) People who raffle off their houses seem to get round the lottery problem by adding a "skills-based" question to the competition. Entrants who get the answer right can buy a ticket. This from The Independent: [quote]To meet gambling laws, entrants have to answer a multiple choice question so there is an element of skill involved and not a pure lottery.[/quote] And from The Telegraph: [quote]To ensure the competition meets the legal requirements and is not a lottery, entrants must answer a "skill based" question before they can enter. Because the grounds [of their house] have a fishing lake the question is: "What is the cost of an adult full season coarse fishing license for 2008/2009?".[/quote] Is that worth looking at? Edit: Sorry, just noticed Originalfunster said much the same thing before. Cheers Mark Edited January 13, 2009 by misrule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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