Level Meter to become Law?????

[Tinman]

Signed

[bremen]

[quote name='misrule' post='375989' date='Jan 10 2009, 10:57 AM']In fairness to the Mail on Sunday (not that they deserve it), their piece is straightforward and balanced. It's sprinkled with 'could' and 'may', indicating that it's all speculation...

...We would probably have more success tackling our MPs about the issue personally than signing a petition which politicians can cheerfully ignore.[/quote]

people are still signing it, asking the govt not to do something that they already did many months ago, clearly having read only the OP and none of the subsequent debate.

Not that it matters. No-one's going to give a f*** about a few hundred musos anyway. Do half-arsed, misguided petitions like this devalue the important ones like 'we demand the govt puts its weight behind UN calls for a middle-east ceasefire'? Probably not.

[mickd]

[quote name='BassBunny' post='375056' date='Jan 9 2009, 01:19 PM']Another piece of proposed legislation that will adversely affect live music
in the UK:

It appears that the government wish to consider, (for consider read "implement"), it a legal requirement in the new tax year to introduce laws insisting anyone applying or re-applying for an entertainment license must have a noise control device fitted to the venue. This will be the final NAIL for ALL entertainment in the UK as the level at which these devices CUT you off is dreadfully low and damaging. I read an article about this in November and the proposed level mentioned then was 70Db. About the same as a hair dryer.
Someone has organised a petition on the Government Petition Site. I urge you ALL to sign it. Not only will this law affect musicians but the whole musical instrument industry, fans, venues.......
Just imagine that vast stock of gear you have would become worthless.
PLEASE DON'T DISMISS THIS. Spread the word and get everyone you know who loves live music to sign the petition. Bands, family, pets, venues, fans just get everyone you know to sign it. No one is saying it will make a difference, but if you don't try, you don't know.
PLEASE SIGN THE PETITION HERE:
[url="http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/NoNoiseControl/"]http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/NoNoiseControl/[/url][/quote]
Signed,this is a disgrace!!!!

[TimR]

It seems strange that they think that the drinking is due to the noise levels. It is well established that it is the other way round. Hearing is impaired by alcohol. The more people drink the louder they get. I know a lot of musicians who seem to think they play better after a beer and drummers who definitely get louder after a beer.

First lnk I ggogled, there are counless others: [url="http://www.indiana.edu/~adic/effects.html"]http://www.indiana.edu/~adic/effects.html[/url]

In order for people to take responsibility for their actions, they need to be informed of what their effect their actions will have. How do you know how loud it is in a bar or how loud a band is? I've played in places where they will not put the band through the limiter, but use the limiter to guage the volume of the band. The manager will tell you to turn down if the red light stays on too long. If you ignore it you don't play there again. Simple.

It'll never get set to 70dB as a crowded bar is louder than that. I would refuse to plug my amp into a power circuit that will turn itself off 'randomly' and could then be reset by someone before I can kill the PA outputs and get my speakers blown.

My guess is that it will have to be less than 80dB outside the venue and there will be strict limits on the amount of time that the music can be louder than a certain level inside.

Unfortunately if venues don't take voluntary measures, the government acts like this.

[bumnote]

[quote name='bremen' post='375300' date='Jan 9 2009, 03:53 PM']Nobody here has been suggesting that these devices are welcome. Some of us have been suggesting that the petition is if not an actual hoax then a scare-story. As we've seen, the petition is pointless as whatever it is (certainly not the 70dB cutoff as described) has been in effect for months now.

It's a bit rude to accuse those of us who wanted a few facts before we signed anything of being flat-earthers. Surely those who signed without question are the ones more likely to believe the earth is flat and the Titanic can't sink just because some (un-named) Sunday paper told them so?[/quote]

If you dont want to sign the petition thats your choice and there have been hoax petitions on there before, the biggest mosque in london seems to ring a bell.

I have not read the article in the sunday paper but I have been told by people who have spent their hard earned cash on these little beasties that they have installed them on council/insurance/advisor advice.

There is a petition in existance, Iwould rather sign that petition than argue about the finer points.

The web site is there for this purpose.

Government took no notice about the protest about Iraq, and will probably take little notice of this either.

I would rather regret the things I have done, than regret the things I didnt do.

[pockethammer]

All signed....... Thanks for bringing it to my attention

Edited January 10, 2009 by pockethammer

[geoffbyrne]

Signed

G.

[blunderthumbs]

[quote name='JJTee' post='375097' date='Jan 9 2009, 01:46 PM']Can someone post a link to something official about this proposal? I've never heard of it I work quite closely with licensing authorities. I'm a little suspicious.[/quote]
If you sign the petition you will get an e mail from the government website confirming
that you have signed.
Go on, we all need to pass this on to all people who might be effected by this proposal.
Not Just musos but people who enjoy live music and come and watch us play!!!

[OldGit]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='376129' date='Jan 10 2009, 01:50 PM']It seems every weekend in my local there's at least one table of blokes who can't talk without shouting, and like to laugh especially loud to show what a fun-loving bunch of stupid twats they are.

They must peak well over 70db. Does this mean they can be thrown out into the street? If so I'm all for it.[/quote]


Yeah they should be plugged into the unit so that power is redirected from the stage power to their ................... when they exceed 70db

[Steve_nottm]

[quote name='blunderthumbs' post='376943' date='Jan 11 2009, 05:46 PM']If you sign the petition you will get an e mail from the government website confirming
that you have signed.
Go on, we all need to pass this on to all people who might be effected by this proposal.
Not Just musos but people who enjoy live music and come and watch us play!!![/quote]

I think what you're not understanding is the fact that people are asking for a link to the legislation that, if it exists, seems so wrong. Not the petition. This is a real petition, on the real gov't website, complaining about a proposal that we can't seem to prove exists or not.

Anyone can create a petition for anything. All people, and that's me included, want to see is what it is that we'd be petitioning against!

If we have hundreds, or even thousands, of petitions against various things that are not really being proposed, just scare-mongered by the papers, then it de-values the strength of being able to petition the govenment.

I wish people would think about what they are signing!

[ahpook]

i've been having a look at this:

[url="http://soundadvice.info/index.htm"]http://soundadvice.info/index.htm[/url]

and this

[url="http://www.hse.gov.uk/noise/musicsound.htm"]http://www.hse.gov.uk/noise/musicsound.htm[/url] (esp the 'myth-buster' pdf)

and i can't see anything about noise meters and automatic power cut-outs (but i'll admit i've not read the whole thing !)

they do mention a few times that attending a loud concert implies 'informed consent' tho...i'm prepared to be put right if i'm wrong !!


edit: having mused on the stuff on those pages, it seems the whole thing is slanted toward protecting employees in venues (which the employer has a obligation to under the Noise at Work Act 2005 anyway) and also making sure that a club or venue is designed so that there's no excessive sound levels inside - stopping reflections building up high sound levels and so on.

apologies if this has been said before...i've only really just looked into this thread.

Edited January 11, 2009 by ahpook

[TimR]

It may be to protect the bar staff and other workers, but as you say it is a point of informed consent. We had the same problems when the H&S exec brought in the working at heights legislation and tried to apply it to rock climbing. In the end the H&S exec worked very closely with climbers so that the element of risk and the sporting activities where preserved and a best practice was adopted.

There are a lot of people who moan about the nanny state, equally there are a lot of people who say that if it was dangerous 'they' wouldn't allow it. Recently there was a lot of press about mp3 players being damaging to hearing and despite there being warnings on the packaging about listening at high volumes, people still believed that if it was actually dangerous they wouldn't be allowed to sell them. There are also people who believe "If its not dangerous, its not worth doing."

I still believe this is more about reducing nuisance noise for residents living near pubs and is just another thing to try to placate the NIMBYs. If you buy a house near a pub you can expect a reasonable amount of noise. But what exactly is a reasonable amount of noise? One person’s idea of music is another’s idea of noise.

[Jase]

70db is the level of a car interior or piano practice or busy traffic and vacuum cleaners......just been having a look at levels.

Painful

150 dB = rock music peak

140 dB = firearms, air raid siren, jet engine

130 dB = jackhammer

120 dB = jet plane take-off, amplified rock music at 4-6 ft., car stereo, band practice

Extremely Loud

110 dB = rock music, model airplane

106 dB = timpani and bass drum rolls

100 dB = snowmobile, chain saw, pneumatic drill

90 dB = lawnmower, shop tools, truck traffic, subway

Very Loud

80 dB = alarm clock, busy street

70 dB = busy traffic, vacuum cleaner

60 dB = conversation, dishwasher

Moderate

50 dB = moderate rainfall

40 dB = quiet room

Faint

30 dB = whisper, quiet library

[Balcro]

First of all, as your friendly neighbourhood Environmental Health Officer, I think this petition is cracked. It's probably
part of a publicity campaign to oppose any noise control in entertainment venues, but it looks misguided.

I think "Stylon Pilson" and " bumnote" (Jan 9th 3.28pm) are heading in the right direction.

All sort of issues here: 70dB as a limit is patently ridiculous. Take no notice. Even a loud short-term "special effect" in a film at your local cinema (modern one with Dolby sound system) will hit 93dBa. I know, I've measured it.

The Noise at Work Act 2005 was updated (2008) to take account of a reduced "action levels". The
pressure for the reduction from 90dB down to 85dBa came from the EU. If the Health & Safety law refers to 85dBa
as an "action level" why would someone suggest a limit of 70!

The article on the BBC web-site as linked by "bremen" is not sensationalist. It states that the law (NAW Act 2008) is
already in force and the levels quoted in the small box are fairly accurate. As several posters have said, the purpose
of the Act is to protect the H&S of the staff in the venue. Not solve a noise problem for musicians or nearby residents
(although you could use it a roundabout way to achieve the same ends).

The "action level" doesn't mean that the noise should be turned off. Thank you "BeLow" (Jan10th) excellent information.

Noise limiters. Most of you have obviously suffered from old cut-off noise level devices. 20 years ago that's all we
had to work with. Anyone remember the Electronic Orange. These things are obsolete. The modern stuff incorporates a level setting with a headroom control. More of a noise compressor/squasher. [u]They don't cut off[/u], just trim off the peaks above the headroom threshold. Far better for control and far better for equipment. Take a look at the Formula Sound Sentry Mk11 and the AVC2 at -

www.formulasound.co.uk/nc-overview.php

Castle Acoustics probably do something similar.

I've e-mailed my local Licensing manager to see if I can get any up to date info. If and when I get a reply I'll let you know.
Balcro.

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='Balcro' post='377776' date='Jan 12 2009, 03:07 PM']Noise limiters. Most of you have obviously suffered from old cut-off noise level devices. 20 years ago that's all we
had to work with. Anyone remember the Electronic Orange. These things are obsolete. The modern stuff incorporates a level setting with a headroom control. More of a noise compressor/squasher. [u]They don't cut off[/u], just trim off the peaks above the headroom threshold. Far better for control and far better for equipment. Take a look at the Formula Sound Sentry Mk11 and the AVC2 at -[/quote]

Problem is that pubs don't seem to be using that kind of equipment. We played "a well known biker pub" in Leeds in December and as soon as our vocalist opened her mouth to soundcheck the power switched off. The landlord told us to plug our PA into another circuit and we proceeded to have a great gig with no further issues.

[bassicinstinct]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='377822' date='Jan 12 2009, 03:41 PM']Problem is that pubs don't seem to be using that kind of equipment. We played "a well known biker pub" in Leeds in December and as soon as our vocalist opened her mouth to soundcheck the power switched off. The landlord told us to plug our PA into another circuit and we proceeded to have a great gig with no further issues.[/quote]

Absolutely!!!

It should come as no surprise that the vast majority of venues currently fitted with limiters (in my experience, obviously) [b]ARE [/b]using equipment which may well be obsolete but certainly [b]DOES CUT OFF[/b].

It's all very well discussing cutting edge technology but naive in the extreme to think that this will be in wide use in anything other than top venues.

My perspective on the petition (forgive me if I'm repeating myself) is that it costs precisely nothing to sign it and, if it is a hoax or misrepresentation of the true facts, what have I lost by signing it?

Absolutely nothing.

Better that than digging up all sorts of statistics in some strange attempt to rubbish it.

All IMHO, obviously.

[RayFW]

[quote name='bassicinstinct' post='377873' date='Jan 12 2009, 04:10 PM']if it is a hoax or misrepresentation of the true facts, what have I lost by signing it?

Absolutely nothing. [/quote]

True, but it does lessen the impact of petitions when people blindly sign anything without doing any kind of research.

Edited January 12, 2009 by rayfw

[Toasted]

[quote name='budget bassist' post='375152' date='Jan 9 2009, 02:16 PM']Do you remember that proposed device the government wanted to fix to your car so they could tax you by your mileage, rather than using tax discs, or something like that. A petition on there stopped it.[/quote]

Come now. Don't be naive.

[Urban Bassman]

Done my bit....

if I couldn't play live don't know what I'd do...

[bassicinstinct]

[quote name='rayfw' post='377894' date='Jan 12 2009, 04:21 PM']True, but it does lessen the impact of petitions when people blindly sign anything without doing any kind of research.[/quote]

How so?

[Toasted]

It probably decreases the validity rather than the impact, IMO.

[bumnote]

[quote name='bassicinstinct' post='377873' date='Jan 12 2009, 04:10 PM']Absolutely!!!

It should come as no surprise that the vast majority of venues currently fitted with limiters (in my experience, obviously) [b]ARE [/b]using equipment which may well be obsolete but certainly [b]DOES CUT OFF[/b].[/quote]

Im not sure these things are obsolete, or badly set up, or just not very good.

We used to play venues where there was almost like a traffic light, and now in 4 of our regular venues, they have like a new type bar graph which gives dotted green line, then amber, then Red and then oh bugger.

These are frequency sensitive, so I can play a G, and get 1 or 2 green lights, then I cant remember if it was F# or Ab [ the drummer cant tell the difference] and its maxed out on the red.

Providing they work properly, and they are set to a reasonable level, I dont mind too much and its good discipline.
When they are uncertain, its like playing on a knife edge.

Maybe we can get rid of the deaf soundmen who think the loudest thing should be the bass drum, and all the bass is lost in a big fuzzy mess.

I saw a very good band recently, and not only could I not hear the singer [how unusual] I couldnt here the guitar!!!!

Edited January 12, 2009 by bumnote

[BTGAndy]

If anything legislation were to be passed (which is very unlikely!) people would find ways around it, just like the ban on foxhunting. This is slow news day scaremongering and some of us seem to be getting a little too worried about it.

[The_D]

Signed just now. I also sent a mail to everyone in my bebo friends list. I played a gig with one fitted once. It only cut out twice during the actual gig but during sound check it took us much longer to set up than normal. If a venue requires it (community hall or social club) then fine but we wont play there. All venues being forced to fit one is wrong on a good few levels and thats why I signed up.

At the end of the day if someone is playing with a valve amp, suddenly killing the power is a bad thing. I would like to see a promoter going in the huff because the gig is off when someones amp blows all the valves.

[crez5150]

[quote name='Balcro' post='377776' date='Jan 12 2009, 03:07 PM']First of all, as your friendly neighbourhood Environmental Health Officer, I think this petition is cracked. It's probably
part of a publicity campaign to oppose any noise control in entertainment venues, but it looks misguided.

I think "Stylon Pilson" and " bumnote" (Jan 9th 3.28pm) are heading in the right direction.

All sort of issues here: 70dB as a limit is patently ridiculous. Take no notice. Even a loud short-term "special effect" in a film at your local cinema (modern one with Dolby sound system) will hit 93dBa. I know, I've measured it.

The Noise at Work Act 2005 was updated (2008) to take account of a reduced "action levels". The
pressure for the reduction from 90dB down to 85dBa came from the EU. If the Health & Safety law refers to 85dBa
as an "action level" why would someone suggest a limit of 70!

The article on the BBC web-site as linked by "bremen" is not sensationalist. It states that the law (NAW Act 2008) is
already in force and the levels quoted in the small box are fairly accurate. As several posters have said, the purpose
of the Act is to protect the H&S of the staff in the venue. Not solve a noise problem for musicians or nearby residents
(although you could use it a roundabout way to achieve the same ends).

The "action level" doesn't mean that the noise should be turned off. Thank you "BeLow" (Jan10th) excellent information.

Noise limiters. Most of you have obviously suffered from old cut-off noise level devices. 20 years ago that's all we
had to work with. Anyone remember the Electronic Orange. These things are obsolete. The modern stuff incorporates a level setting with a headroom control. More of a noise compressor/squasher. [u]They don't cut off[/u], just trim off the peaks above the headroom threshold. Far better for control and far better for equipment. Take a look at the Formula Sound Sentry Mk11 and the AVC2 at -

www.formulasound.co.uk/nc-overview.php

Castle Acoustics probably do something similar.

I've e-mailed my local Licensing manager to see if I can get any up to date info. If and when I get a reply I'll let you know.
Balcro.[/quote]


I'll think you'll find that the power cut limiters are still very much in place.... the one's you mention are predominantly for Sound systems that have already been installed into a venue or house systems..... I don't think they've invented a system that can actually trim the peaks off you bass cab or snare drum.... yet anyhow.

The venues that I visit that have these in are checked regularly, especially in the more prestigious houses. Also they are replaced fairly often.