stolen gear found - advice needed

[stingrayPete1977]

https://www.netlawman.co.uk/ia/selling-goods-non-owner#Seller in possession after sale

This sums it up as clearly as possible imo and for all but the most complicated of cases as long as you can prove the goods are yours you'll be handed them back and the buyer, in this case cash converters, lose out and need to take up the dispute with the person that bought them in.

[GreeneKing]

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/somethings-gone-wrong-with-a-purchase/if-you-think-youve-bought-stolen-goods/

[Geek99]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1494930135' post='3299609']
[url="https://www.netlawman.co.uk/ia/selling-goods-non-owner#Seller"]https://www.netlawma...on-owner#Seller[/url] in possession after sale

This sums it up as clearly as possible imo and for all but the most complicated of cases as long as you can prove the goods are yours you'll be handed them back and the buyer, in this case cash converters, lose out and need to take up the dispute with the person that bought them in.
[/quote]
Assuming that person hasnt injected the proceeds by then

[GreeneKing]

Apologies for getting a little aerated. All i'm trying to say is that if you have been a genuine buyer then you needn't be out of pocket if the goods turn out to be stolen as you can make a claim against the seller.

[Monkey Steve]

[quote name='GreeneKing' timestamp='1494930479' post='3299617']
[url="https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/somethings-gone-wrong-with-a-purchase/if-you-think-youve-bought-stolen-goods/"]https://www.citizens...t-stolen-goods/[/url]
[/quote]

This has nothing to do with getting your stolen goods back - it's confirming that if you bought them from somebody who didn't own them to begin with (like Cash Converters did here) then you have to take up getting your money back from them as a civil matter. It confirms exactly what everybody else has said , that Cash Converters have to give the stuff back to the original owner.

[Jakester]

And (as a currently practicing solicitor) the analogy drawn with cars is erroneous, as there is specific legislation which deals with vehicles sold without notice of a finance agreement.

The legal principle is 'nemo date non quod habet' which means that a vendor cannot sell what he does not have good title to. There are various statutory and case law provisions relating to this but in general the innocent buyer cannot acquire good title in stolen goods.

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1494931112' post='3299627']
This has nothing to do with getting your stolen goods back - it's confirming that if you bought them from somebody who didn't own them to begin with (like Cash Converters did here) then you have to take up getting your money back from them as a civil matter. It confirms exactly what everybody else has said , that Cash Converters have to give the stuff back to the original owner.
[/quote]

Cash Converters will put the goods in 'quarantine' until the original owner has been established by the police. It is standard practice and happens often. Otherwise all and sundry would turn up at CC and say 'that's mine, give it back'.

Yes you are correct re the above except it doesn't confirm what everyone has said i.e. that you lose out if you buy stolen goods in good faith.

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='Jakester' timestamp='1494931707' post='3299637']
And (as a currently practicing solicitor) the analogy drawn with cars is erroneous, as there is specific legislation which deals with vehicles sold without notice of a finance agreement.

The legal principle is 'nemo date non quod habet' which means that a vendor cannot sell what he does not have good title to. There are various statutory and case law provisions relating to this but in general the innocent buyer cannot acquire good title in stolen goods.
[/quote]

No indeed, but he does have redress to recover the monies from the seller.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='GreeneKing' timestamp='1494931019' post='3299626']
Apologies for getting a little aerated. All i'm trying to say is that if you have been a genuine buyer then you needn't be out of pocket if the goods turn out to be stolen as you can make a claim against the seller.
[/quote]

No problem, so no case for ownership etc as you previously posted

[stingrayPete1977]

At the risk of repeating myself, if you purchase something for a 'fair' price in good faith then you have a right to raise the matter before a civil court and ownership or reasonable claim will be considered?

^ This is the only part I'm disputing, in some very very unusual cases regarding valuable items over large periods of time then very possibly, an amp in cash converters where the OP has a receipt with a serial number from PMT I really hope common sense will prevail!

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Jakester' timestamp='1494931707' post='3299637']
And (as a currently practicing solicitor) the analogy drawn with cars is erroneous, as there is specific legislation which deals with vehicles sold without notice of a finance agreement.

The legal principle is 'nemo date non quod habet' which means that a vendor cannot sell what he does not have good title to. There are various statutory and case law provisions relating to this but in general the innocent buyer cannot acquire good title in stolen goods.
[/quote]

Ignoring the finance agreement the same rules apply don't they? If it's not yours to sell it's not your property be it on finance, loan or owned outright someone somewhere owns it that hasn't given permission to sell it.

[GreeneKing]

I'll put my hands up. Ownership is wrong, what I should be saying is that a claim against the seller for monies lost is the issue. I obviously got the 'wrong end of the ownership stick' on this. If you've been £4k out of pocket Pete for something stolen you bought in good faith (it seems that cars are a different matter) then you should have redress against the seller. I was advised while in the 'job' by someone experienced and in authority that ownership wasn't to be assumed to be the original owner in such cases and I took this as gospel. Just goes to show you can't always trust a copper.

Edited May 16, 2017 by GreeneKing

[Blink]

You don't mention if you had insured the items and if yes, did the insurance company pay your claim. If yes then the items belong to the insurance company and you should notify them.

N

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='GreeneKing' timestamp='1494935513' post='3299696']
I'll put my hands up. Ownership is wrong, what I should be saying is that a claim against the seller for monies lost is the issue. I obviously got the 'wrong end of the ownership stick' on this. If you've been £4k out of pocket Pete for something stolen you bought in good faith (it seems that cars are a different matter) then you should have redress against the seller. I was advised while in the 'job' by someone experienced and in authority that ownership wasn't to be assumed to be the original owner in such cases and I took this as gospel. Just goes to show you can't always trust a copper.
[/quote]

The vehicle was stolen and sold on by what turned out to be travellers, they used someone else's house to sell it from where the owner was on holiday, the sellers children were watching tv in their pyjamas in the front room! That's the trouble with the getting the cash back bit from thieves isn't it? They don't tend to wait for you to come back

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Blink' timestamp='1494937957' post='3299739']
You don't mention if you had insured the items and if yes, did the insurance company pay your claim. If yes then the items belong to the insurance company and you should notify them.

N
[/quote]

This is exactly what happened,the vehicle had been stolen over a year earlier and the owners had been paid out so it now belonged to the insurer who offered it at a decent price, obviously it was then cat D too. It actually turned out to be a good van over a good few years.

[LewisK1975]

Lets get this back on topic eh guys?

Does the OP have an update?

This happened to me with a Bike which was stolen from my shed. Turned up in my local Cash generator a while later. I told one of the guys in the shop immediately and he told me what to do. They removed the bike from sale, it was seized by the police, and when I proved I was the rightful owner with my original receipt and gave a statement the police gave it back to me. Took a little time for it all to happen, about 3 weeks from seeing it in CG to getting it back IIRC.

[Grangur]

This thread has got me thinking. Bass gear is nothing like a car. Cars have to have documents. Bass gear doesn't always.

If I became short of cash and took all my gear to a CC, if anyone were to claim it was stolen gear, I have nothing to prove I've paid for any of it.

I can see I'll be taking pictures and recording serial numbers.

[AdamWoodBass]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1494940312' post='3299773']
This thread has got me thinking. Bass gear is nothing like a car. Cars have to have documents. Bass gear doesn't always.

If I became short of cash and took all my gear to a CC, if anyone were to claim it was stolen gear, I have nothing to prove I've paid for any of it.

I can see I'll be taking pictures and recording serial numbers.
[/quote]

Excellent point here and likewise I think I'm in the same boat, shall be rectifying that by photographing and recording my serial numbers now!

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='AdamWoodBass' timestamp='1494941119' post='3299785']
Excellent point here and likewise I think I'm in the same boat, shall be rectifying that by photographing and recording my serial numbers now!
[/quote]

+1 for being an excellent point. I've written down all of my serial numbers, but that doesn't actually prove ownership to the police - just helps me with identification! Photos definitely required.

S.P.

[Bassmonkey]

Blimey - that prompted debate eh? Thanks all again for the advice and views.

The best bit here is the flukey way I found out. A bassist colleague called me last week and we ended up talking amps. He is sick of hauling a big rig. I told him about my Orange Terror rig. (I bought a replacement) he went off to investigate. Then last night, he sent me a link to a local Cash Converters asking if the pictured amp was the same model - the amp in the pic was actually mine. I looked on their site and they also had my mic and other stolen items. What are the chances?????

So.....here's the update:

I went to the store as advised by the police. My amp was in the window. Orange Terror Bass 500W. Custom Orange wooden cabinet. Roqsolid cover £299. Bargain!

I looked around and found the mic. Shure 87A, Sennheiser Freeport body pack. Mono Producer Bag. Half a dozen mic/instrument leads £99. Bargain.

Spoke to the manager, advised him they're mine. He asked a few questions about how I knew (not difficult having non standard cases) he was satisfied. He said he'd take em off sale (and did do immediately) and he warned me to keep on at the police as they may be slow to respond. All in all, a thoroughly nice fella.

I followed up the trip with an email to both him and the police reiterating what had been agreed.

Next thing I got a call from the cops at 13.00. They've been in, recovered the items and will call me for a statement. Now that is impressive.

I am waiting with fingers crossed. Sadly, my in ear receiver, ear phones, tool kit, Atlas mic stand base and iPod have gone but I have replaced em all already. Am hugely grateful to get anything back and hope that some thieving scrote gets their collar felt as a result. Time will tell.
Andy

[ambient]

Something I do when I buy new items, I just bought some new Genelec monitors for example. I always keep the boxes for everything, and I keep the receipt for the item in the box, up in the loft. I always make sure that the serial number is written on the receipt too.

[AdamWoodBass]

[quote name='Bassmonkey' timestamp='1494943193' post='3299812']
Blimey - that prompted debate eh? Thanks all again for the advice and views.

The best bit here is the flukey way I found out. A bassist colleague called me last week and we ended up talking amps. He is sick of hauling a big rig. I told him about my Orange Terror rig. (I bought a replacement) he went off to investigate. Then last night, he sent me a link to a local Cash Converters asking if the pictured amp was the same model - the amp in the pic was actually mine. I looked on their site and they also had my mic and other stolen items. What are the chances?????

So.....here's the update:

I went to the store as advised by the police. My amp was in the window. Orange Terror Bass 500W. Custom Orange wooden cabinet. Roqsolid cover £299. Bargain!

I looked around and found the mic. Shure 87A, Sennheiser Freeport body pack. Mono Producer Bag. Half a dozen mic/instrument leads £99. Bargain.

Spoke to the manager, advised him they're mine. He asked a few questions about how I knew (not difficult having non standard cases) he was satisfied. He said he'd take em off sale (and did do immediately) and he warned me to keep on at the police as they may be slow to respond. All in all, a thoroughly nice fella.

I followed up the trip with an email to both him and the police reiterating what had been agreed.

Next thing I got a call from the cops at 13.00. They've been in, recovered the items and will call me for a statement. Now that is impressive.

I am waiting with fingers crossed. Sadly, my in ear receiver, ear phones, tool kit, Atlas mic stand base and iPod have gone but I have replaced em all already. Am hugely grateful to get anything back and hope that some thieving scrote gets their collar felt as a result. Time will tell.
Andy
[/quote]

Glad things seem to be working out here mate.

[ivansc]

And that is of course exactly how it should be dealt with.

So for all of you who claim that CC are a bunch of crooks and routinely knowingly handle stolen goods, I am an ex CC manager and we ALWAYS wound up losing whatever we had paid for anything that showed up stolen when the real owner came in and claimed them.
Part of the franchise training is on how to spot fraudulent sales/pawns and short term loan items.
Regardless of what you think, it is VERY bad business to buy in stolen goods, or even stuff that you think might be.

One classic that comes to mind was a manager in Dunstable who lent a customer £100 on a Mesa Boogie Mk IV amp many years ago.
He called me when the guy didn't redeem it 30 days later to get an idea of how much it should sell for.
Co-incidentally I had just received a list of stolen goods taken in the last couple of months, including this amp. Someone had stolen the owners Jag, set fire to it and stolen all his gear out of the boot.
The guy did get his amp back, but not his guitar - a PRS - and Dunstable were out £100. I don think the toerags were ever caught, even with name address and positive ID.

Edited May 16, 2017 by ivansc

[CamdenRob]

On an tangent... I have no idea how my local CC keeps afloat....

There is never anyone in there buying anything, always a huge queue selling tat and they have a large premises in central London, staff to pay etc.

... must do a huge amount of business online.

[ivansc]

Let me guess this particular store is to the eastern side of central London?
If I am right, it is run by the 2 guys who brought the franchise over from Australia in the first place.
They probably have enough money coming in as franchise fees that they aren't hurting.