Dad3353 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1477057906' post='3159584']...a little more oomph from the kick drum... [/quote] Have you (and the drummer, of course..!) exhausted all of the options of tuning, changing the batter and/or resonant head..? Using an un-ported head..? There's a lot that can be done to change the overall tone of any drum. Just a thought..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1477057906' post='3159584'] If anything, I would like a little more oomph from the kick drum and have considered micing it up through a separate powered cab, situated beside the drums and facing the audience. (I would appreciate any comments regarding such an arrangements) [/quote] That concept is fine - it's pretty much how a "aux-fed sub" would work - although you would ideally want to have some compression, maybe a gate and some eq to get the most out of that cab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leroydiamond Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1477058912' post='3159593'] Have you (and the drummer, of course..!) exhausted all of the options of tuning, changing the batter and/or resonant head..? Using an un-ported head..? There's a lot that can be done to change the overall tone of any drum. Just a thought..? [/quote] No. I will chat to the drummer and see where this might go. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leroydiamond Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1477059319' post='3159598'] That concept is fine - it's pretty much how a "aux-fed sub" would work - although you would ideally want to have some compression, maybe a gate and some eq to get the most out of that cab. [/quote] Thanks for that suggestion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477056117' post='3159566'] The guitarist owns the PA. 2x10" tops. They are physically 30% possibility more, of the size of the same 15" tops and a lot lighter. FACT. [/quote] Fat Spanish waiter, you're just a fat Spanish waiter ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477056117' post='3159566'] The guitarist owns the PA. 2x10" tops. They are physically 30% possibility more, of the size of the same 15" tops and a lot lighter. FACT. The specs are on the website. He has to fit them and his guitar amp and monitors in his car and load it all in and out at his home. [/quote] This is a completely different argument. Logistics of getting the gear to the gig is not the same discussion as comparing the merits of the band going through the PA or not through the PA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1477059533' post='3159600'] Thanks for that suggestion [/quote] Leroy - you actually may want to look into a triggered kick - say a Roland RT30k and a TM2. This will give you the sound of a compressed, eqed, bleed free kick but without the hassle of running outboard, or some sort of digital desk. It will actually sound a lot better than most people's efforts at getting a decent live kick sound also. Also means your drummer can carry around a tiddler of a kick drum too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leroydiamond Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1477059851' post='3159607'] Leroy - you actually may want to look into a triggered kick - say a Roland RT30k and a TM2. This will give you the sound of a compressed, eqed, bleed free kick but without the hassle of running outboard, or some sort of digital desk. It will actually sound a lot better than most people's efforts at getting a decent live kick sound also. Also means your drummer can carry around a tiddler of a kick drum too. [/quote] That could well be the way to go. Will discuss with the guys in the band and see where it might go. Many thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1477059563' post='3159601'] Fat Spanish waiter, you're just a fat Spanish waiter ... [/quote]Tú eres solamente un mesero muy gordo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1477059630' post='3159602'] This is a completely different argument. Logistics of getting the gear to the gig is not the same discussion as comparing the merits of the band going through the PA or not through the PA. [/quote] No. It's the same discussion. It's a factor of whether your band can warrant using a full PA. If I had a van and roadies and a sound engineer and millions of pounds to spend, I just turned up to the gig, plugged in and played, then it'd be full PA always. I don't. So it's not. So saying its a better way of doing things and it's the way we should all do it is academic. Edited October 21, 2016 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1477059851' post='3159607'] Leroy - you actually may want to look into a triggered kick - say a Roland RT30k and a TM2. This will give you the sound of a compressed, eqed, bleed free kick but without the hassle of running outboard, or some sort of digital desk. It will actually sound a lot better than most people's efforts at getting a decent live kick sound also. Also means your drummer can carry around a tiddler of a kick drum too. [/quote] Man alive! That's a sledgehammer to crack a nut. What kind of gigs are you guys playing? Someone suggests they might like a little bit more prescence from the bass drum and we're into triggers. Madness. Take a step back guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477061631' post='3159629'] Man alive! That's a sledgehammer to crack a nut. What kind of gigs are you guys playing? Someone suggests they might like a little bit more prescence from the bass drum and we're into triggers. Madness. Take a step back guys. [/quote] I play all sorts of gigs - and have a pride in my sound. Why is everybody always content with "it'll do"? You've clearly invested in your backline... so why shouldn't the drummer invest in his/her's too? A bass drum mic is the correct solution if you have access to the appropriate processing... if you haven't got the appropriate processing, then a kick drum mic is invitation to blow tops - I wouldn't recommend it through your 10s for example. If you have got eq and compression as a minimum on your desk, then jobs a goodun. But I still wouldn't expect great results through 10s. If the poster hasn't got the above, it's going to be cheaper than buying a decent kick drum mic, the outboard to process it properly - or a digital desk. The trigger and module will get you immediate results, with no feedback, no bleed and also not cause trauma to your PA. In fact, in terms of getting reliable results every time at every venue, it's probably more simple than your bass drum mic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 As Dad says. "The correct solution" is to tune the bass drum correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477064728' post='3159660'] As Dad says. "The correct solution" is to tune the bass drum correctly. [/quote] Doesn't mean sh1t if nobody can hear it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 A digital mixer can be had for around £200 with all the features mentioned above, it will also save room in the guitarists car compared to a typical 1000 watt euro desk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1477065853' post='3159675'] A digital mixer can be had for around £200 with all the features mentioned above, it will also save room in the guitarists car compared to a typical 1000 watt euro desk [/quote] The good old XR12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_Bass Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477061360' post='3159625'] No. It's the same discussion. It's a factor of whether your band can warrant using a full PA. If I had a van and roadies and a sound engineer and millions of pounds to spend, I just turned up to the gig, plugged in and played, then it'd be full PA always. I don't. So it's not. So saying its a better way of doing things and it's the way we should all do it is academic. [/quote] Drumer has a van (we both own personal station wagon vans also if needed for carting material if the Vito isn't available), we don't have roadies, we cart all the gear but it's light (class-D power modules in active PA sub+tops). We own a very good quality PA that costed a bit above £1K used and payed it with gigs in the first couple of months. We take much pride in presenting the best sound possible to the audience because we're getting payed to do that gig (we account for the van's gas expenses in our price) and try to be as professional as possible. As a result we get a good deal of bookings. It doesn't kill me to do a couple more trips to the van to carry the PA and i sleep better after getting home without having my ears ringing. I'm prepared to do all the work necessary to provide the best show possible, i wouldn't skimp on sound quality just to avoid carrying a bit of weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1477066070' post='3159678'] I'm prepared to do all the work necessary to provide the best show possible [/quote] Well done that man. A pride in one's work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) See here's my thinking complete with expert diagrams! This is what many of us have used in the past and still are using ime. [URL=http://s997.photobucket.com/user/stingraypete/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211739_zps3ryp3v7e.jpg.html][IMG]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/stingraypete/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211739_zps3ryp3v7e.jpg[/IMG][/URL] Variations on exact cab sizes yes I know, 12" subs, 2 1x12 bass cabs etc but the basic jist and hauling is the same more or less, you still need a mixing desk and power amp, two pa tops, stands, monitors for vocals but two large backline cabs for guitar and bass. The guitarist bringing a smaller amp, no mixer and no power amp but two bigger PA cabs is neither here nor there imo and most of us here haven't got TimR's guitarist in our band afaik? Now this is our setup, we sometimes use slightly larger backline if there is stage room. [URL=http://s997.photobucket.com/user/stingraypete/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211722_zpsqegsc2hz.jpg.html][IMG]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/stingraypete/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211722_zpsqegsc2hz.jpg[/IMG][/URL] The option to add a hired sub or two takes that to anything I'd mix myself before calling in the pros with the full 6 D&B monitors! From what I gather this is what EBS_freak is running but with a pair of huge RCF subs for serious gigs? Coupled with the whole band on wireless instruments and wireless in ears that's a crazy quick setup and strip down with near identical FOH and a silent feed back free stage area regardless of the venue. [URL=http://s997.photobucket.com/user/stingraypete/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211702_zpsd7kmtfhh.jpg.html][IMG]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/stingraypete/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211702_zpsd7kmtfhh.jpg[/IMG][/URL] Now I can see buying a huge RCF pa for the tickled trout would be crazy money just for that but who's band ONLY does gigs where you can only use the smallest kit? The storage space at home is now far smaller than what a typical old Peavey PA, desk,amps,subs and monitors take up. Now I appreciate Tim is happy and that Dad is happy, thats cool but not everyone reading this has either a guitarist that can't fit the tops in their car or bought their kit in 1973 and feels it and the enormous van required to get it to the gig are the best solution especially if they are in the market for a new system. There are lots of ways of doing small venue sound but for me a pa that can do small and large venues saves storage space at home and makes life simple, the fact the digital mixer has a van load of equivalent analogue kit in a box smaller than a shoe box is the cherry on top! Edited October 21, 2016 by stingrayPete1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Our PA consists of a Souncraft EFX12 mixer, two active Yamaha 10" tops and a couple of monitors. There's no way I'm lugging a 4x10 bass cab anywhere, ever. They sound terrible. I'm afraid after 30+ years of playing I'm not prepared to do whatever it takes. I will do whatever is practical given the time available and budget. I think (from your drawing) you have an image stuck in your head. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTypeV4 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1477066358' post='3159687'] Well done that man. A pride in one's work. [/quote] Seconded.. I'm not getting into the 'PA size / adequacy / control / SPL / on-stage / FOH debate' as lots of angles have already been covered and discussed many times before in previous threads! Good sound is very important to me whether i'm playing or mixing so I'm very much in the 'whatever takes to make it right camp'.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 [quote name='molan' timestamp='1476884373' post='3158088'] For those of you only using minimal PA - any of you using an SVT Classic with two large cabs as your bass backline? [/quote] God no. I want a decent sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 surely if you're using an unmiced drum kit, which we do (trust me it's loud enough for a pub gig) you need a backline loud enough so you and the drummer can hear what's going off (assuming no IEM) which, will be loud enough for the rest of the room as is the unmiced drum kit, if you see what I'm getting at, we take about 40 minutes to set up and at the end of the gig we're away in about 20 minutes which for me is a big plus There's also the aesthetics to consider, having a big backine is more Rock and Roll IMO of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477087395' post='3159861'] I think (from your drawing) you have an image stuck in your head. . [/quote] In what way? If you read the first line I clearly state that there will be variations on speaker sizes, what are you monitoring the guitar and bass with then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 [quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1477124602' post='3159955'] surely if you're using an unmiced drum kit, which we do (trust me it's loud enough for a pub gig) you need a backline loud enough so you and the drummer can hear what's going off (assuming no IEM) which, will be loud enough for the rest of the room as is the unmiced drum kit, if you see what I'm getting at, we take about 40 minutes to set up and at the end of the gig we're away in about 20 minutes which for me is a big plus There's also the aesthetics to consider, having a big backine is more Rock and Roll IMO of course [/quote] This is back to the exact contradiction about putting the bass in the pa, you can't tell us that no one needs to be putting bass in the pa in a pub because the backline bass amp will fill the whole room even when full of people right to the back including hearing all those tasty fills up the dusty end then at the same time say that those who have bass in the pa and a small stage monitor or three wont be able to hear it right next to the pa and the monitors. Can you see what I'm saying? Both ways work fine I'll be doing both in the future, if I already had a pa big enough for every gig we'd ever do that cant handle bass I wouldn't change it but on the other hand if you already have some tasty pa tops then I'm not going to take those plus a large backline to a tiny pub or go out and buy another pair of smaller tops which need paying for and storing at home with the bigger ones I've already bought,lol If you are in the market for a new pa and like most people you are looking for smaller lightweight bass gear setup, I'm suggesting (not forcing) you buy a slightly bigger pa and a smaller set of amps, more room on stage in smaller venues and more control over the overall volume are massive plus points for anyone playing smaller venues, if it turns out to be a decent sized function room you just slide the volume up, job done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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