Is possession 9/10's of the law?

[Geek99]

He is not expected to fully understand the morals - doli capax starts at ten and tapers up

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Ashweb' timestamp='1453407469' post='2959321']
Wow, thanks for all the replies.

For all those that have asked, the bass is a Jackson C-20 and I paid £98 for it on ebay. A bit of a bargain I think.

I spoke to the shop today and the bass is definitely going back. The father saw the bass (and an effect pedal on a different auction) on the ended listings on eBay and stormed into the shop demanding it back. After being informed of it being dispatched he reported the matter to the Police who spent time with the shop owner and concluded that there was no criminal case to answer but as said above there would be a civil case between estranged father and son (13y/o I believe, same age as my son). I'd get absolutely no pleasure from playing this now, knowing that a 13y/o boy has been criminalised by his own father for making a simple mistake; the shop is paying for a courier to pick it up and giving me a full refund so they will be left out of pocket over all this. It's just one of those bad situations that will only get worse the longer it drags on and frankly some battles just aren't worth fighting.

Already looking into others to replace it... now that in itself is fun
[/quote]Well done, a good decision.

[TimR]

[quote name='Geek99' timestamp='1453452329' post='2959568']
He is not expected to fully understand the morals - doli capax starts at ten and tapers up
[/quote]

It's absolutely bonkers. I suspect when the dad eventually contacts a lawyer he will be laughed at quite a lot and shown the exit.

Very sad really.

[sunburstjazz1967]

I wouldn't have involved with this family debate and kept the bass, what would have happened if the bass had been purchased with cash in the shop?

[TimR]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453463404' post='2959685']
I wouldn't have involved with this family debate and kept the bass, what would have happened if the bass had been purchased with cash in the shop?
[/quote]

But it wasn't and so he is.

This is similar to 'finders keepers', where the onus is on how hard it would be to trace the original owner vs how expensive the find is. Just that it is in reverse.

Pick up a fiver in the street, no one appears to be looking for it, wait a few minutes, it's yours.

If you see someone drop that fiver and not realise then it's theft.

[sunburstjazz1967]

I'm not so sure, how far back is the buyer obliged to go? I've just bought a new pa from an online shop, I don't know where they have got it from.

Under No circumstance should the shop pass on any buyers info to the kid, his mom or the dad so the only people that could request that would be the police who I can't see getting involved at all. If the kid swore his dad gave it him and his dad swore he didn't that's the end of the whole debacle legally.

Edited January 22, 2016 by sunburstjazz1967

[No. 8 Wire]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453464607' post='2959697']
I'm not so sure, how far back is the buyer obliged to go? I've just bought a new pa from an online shop, I don't know where they have got it from.

Under No circumstance should the shop pass on any buyers info to the kid, his mom or the dad so the only people that could request that would be the police who I can't see getting involved at all. If the kid swore his dad gave it him and his dad swore he didn't that's the end of the whole debacle legally.
[/quote]

For the civil side of this, the limit is 6 years. However that time runs from when the claimant had knowledge of the facts - or should have done.

This is nothing to do with the police - for the OPs situation their isn't enough evidence to prove any criminal action, and obviously the kid is too young to be sued as well.

[TimR]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453464607' post='2959697']
I'm not so sure, how far back is the buyer obliged to go? I've just bought a new pa from an online shop, I don't know where they have got it from.

Under No circumstance should the shop pass on any buyers info to the kid, his mom or the dad so the only people that could request that would be the police who I can't see getting involved at all. If the kid swore his dad gave it him and his dad swore he didn't that's the end of the whole debacle legally.
[/quote]

That's a lot of "if"s.

The buyer doesn't have to go back at all to check. He's made a purchase in good faith.

The shop has been notified that the bass may be stolen. It's their remit to now contact the person they sold it to and find out if try can get it back or pass on details to the police.

They've done that and fulfilled their obligation.

However, technically the bass hasn't been stolen in this case.

It's all about what morally is right here.

.

Edited January 22, 2016 by TimR

[sunburstjazz1967]

Morals schmorals :-)

[Dropzone]

Obviously this is a pretty low rent family as they are wasting police time over a £100 bass, what's the worst that could happen, scummy dad finds out your address from clumsy shop owner and beats down you door whilst steaming drunk. I would be rid, not worth the hassle. Sounds like you are doing the right thing anyway.

[Geddys nose]

The police would not get involved it would be a civil matter,Good luck on whoever brings that to court . The shop has done the right thing asking for it back and you have done the right

thing by agreeing to send it back.

If it was a individual and not a shop I would 100% keep hold of the goods and let the system come to you (If you know what I mean) I got stung pretty badly last year "Doing the right thing"

never again

Edited January 22, 2016 by Geddys nose

[Grangur]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453464607' post='2959697']
I'm not so sure, how far back is the buyer obliged to go? I've just bought a new pa from an online shop, I don't know where they have got it from.

Under No circumstance should the shop pass on any buyers info to the kid, his mom or the dad so the only people that could request that would be the police who I can't see getting involved at all. If the kid swore his dad gave it him and his dad swore he didn't that's the end of the whole debacle legally.
[/quote]
If the family exists, and the story is genuine, then as said by others they're a bit low-rent and I can imagine the in-family wrangling would go on for years. I pity the kid.

Off topic - here's another ; OP, go for it my son!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jackson-4-String-Bass-wonderful-condition-Matt-Black-/151956730786?hash=item236153b3a2:g:Hz4AAOSwCypWn4Wr

(It's not the same one again is it?)

[sunburstjazz1967]

It wouldn't surprise me if it was the same one you know!

[No. 8 Wire]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453483023' post='2959974']
It wouldn't surprise me if it was the same one you know!
[/quote]

I couldn't help myself and did a search on fleabay, unfortunately for the continuing drama of this thread, the OP's bass was blue.

[Grangur]

[quote name='No. 8 Wire' timestamp='1453483825' post='2959982']
I couldn't help myself and did a search on fleabay, unfortunately for the continuing drama of this thread, the OP's bass was blue.
[/quote]
AND it would look better in blue imho. Shame.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Ashweb' timestamp='1453407469' post='2959321']
Wow, thanks for all the replies.

For all those that have asked, the bass is a Jackson C-20 and I paid £98 for it on ebay. A bit of a bargain I think.

I spoke to the shop today and the bass is definitely going back. The father saw the bass (and an effect pedal on a different auction) on the ended listings on eBay and stormed into the shop demanding it back. After being informed of it being dispatched he reported the matter to the Police who spent time with the shop owner and concluded that there was no criminal case to answer but as said above there would be a civil case between estranged father and son (13y/o I believe, same age as my son). I'd get absolutely no pleasure from playing this now, knowing that a 13y/o boy has been criminalised by his own father for making a simple mistake; the shop is paying for a courier to pick it up and giving me a full refund so they will be left out of pocket over all this. It's just one of those bad situations that will only get worse the longer it drags on and frankly some battles just aren't worth fighting.

Already looking into others to replace it... now that in itself is fun
[/quote]

Sounds like the best course of action... too messy, not worth it. Don't get involved in that family's bickering...

[mcnach]

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1453425501' post='2959496']
Bit surprised there is no criminal case to answer - surely there is fraud (by the boy) or criminal negligence (by the shop)?

Still, seems like the right outcome; bass back to dad and the purchase refunded. A sad story really.
[/quote]

It sounds to me like the father just wants to be difficult because he feels wronged in some way, and probably the kid is just in the middle... sad, indeed. I'm not sure you could call fraud... father says he loaned the bass, kid says it was a gift... it's not like they'll have receipts.
Best to walk out and not be splashed by any of it.

[timmo]

No idea how it works with theft, but if you buy a car for example, and it turns out to be stolen, it can be taken from you even if you bought it in good faith. Wouldn't that apply to everything or just cars, or am i also wrong about the car getting repossessed?
I really do think that all these cash converter type shops are the biggest fences in Britain

[4stringslow]

I think that principle works with all goods - if they are stolen then the seller has no right to sell them in the first place.

However, in this case mcnach has cut to the issue in this case. Ownership is being disputed and it's dad's word against his son, so a very messy family dispute and I reckon the OP is better off out of it - especially as a full refund is being offered.

Makes you wonder about ever buying stuff from those sorts of places!

[discreet]

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1453551638' post='2960453']
Makes you wonder about ever buying stuff from those sorts of places!
[/quote]

Buying used always has [i]some [/i]kind of risk attached to it. But if the price is right, it's often too tempting to resist. And generally I've had few problems buying from eBay shops. Gumtree is dodgier, as there are fewer checks and balances in place and Crack Converters is pretty much a Wild-West situation where the dollar is king. Having said that, most items of interest I ever see in CC seem to be overpriced.

Edited January 23, 2016 by discreet

[TimR]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1453551113' post='2960447']
No idea how it works with theft, but if you buy a car for example, and it turns out to be stolen, it can be taken from you even if you bought it in good faith. Wouldn't that apply to everything or just cars, or am i also wrong about the car getting repossessed?
I really do think that all these cash converter type shops area the biggest fences in Britain
[/quote]

It works with everything. But as a wrote earlier there's a burden of proof and it depends on how much something is worth and whether you're going to go chasing after something that's very hard to find. All linked together.

With a car that's all pretty easy.

With the shops I'd hope they have a policy of no questions asked refund. Otherwise they'll just be finding themselves in court all day.

[Ashweb]

It seems I've sparked an interesting debate. The situation update is the bass is being collected on Monday (25-01) and I'm glad to be shot of it TBH. Someone posted earlier that I should claim to have re-strung it and claim the cost back - I can't even do that as the shop had cleaned and re-strung it before despatch; they had also claimed to have tuned it but when I got it, it was a long way from tuned so I think it was definitely re-strung. So the father is going to get it back in much better condition than when he last saw it.

Thanks for the link Grangur - already watching it - but as you say, I too prefer it in blue and that bass is being sold by a charity shop that's not local to me and I wonder how well they will pack a bass for transport. I'm being drawn to some nice Ibanez GSR 200's one of which is in blue and I may well go for it. Can't be this unlucky twice in a row, can I?

[discreet]

[quote name='Ashweb' timestamp='1453571540' post='2960698']
I'm glad to be shot of it TBH.
[/quote]

I think I would be, too. Excelsior!

[bonnp]

get a refund ,it could be it was never theirs to sell, better safe than sorry

[Naetharu]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1453554771' post='2960486']
Buying used always has [i]some [/i]kind of risk attached to it. But if the price is right, it's often too tempting to resist. And generally I've had few problems buying from eBay shops. Gumtree is dodgier, as there are fewer checks and balances in place and Crack Converters is pretty much a Wild-West situation where the dollar is king. Having said that, most items of interest I ever see in CC seem to be overpriced.
[/quote]

My local one had one of the new Epiphone T-birds - the ones that RRP around £270 - when I was in last month...they wanted £400 for it and it was marked up as a 'rare and classic' model. So yep, pretty much hopeless those places. Shame as they used to be pretty good when I was a kid: I managed to feed my video-game habits on pocket-money thanks to the one in Colchester back in the early 1990s.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Naetharu