steve-bbb Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Eqpt = Hartke LH500 into a Hydrive410 previously i was playing a passive J into the head via a couple of boss pedals (with levels set to match the clean signal) recently purchased on the sale forum here a nice little dbx160a rack compressor - ive tried this in line in fromt of the amp input and also in the send/return loop (where i am informed it will do its job to best effect) after i started using the comp the amp has become extremley loud - at same time i also loaded a j-east01 preamp into the J so the output from that is now rather massive - i tried turning down the input gain on the comp but it still frreequently flashes into the orange and red on the comp - indeed the first time i gigged it i did start to experience what i thought at the time was power amp break up possibly where the whole preamp signal was driving the power amp too hard - i gigged it a second time and turned down the input gain on the comp but still clips into red - the only way to stop the comp from clipping into the red seems to be reducing the master vol on the guitar do i need to adjust the trim pots on the active eq - is it likely that the signal from the guitar is the cause and not the amp.comp? ta muchly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Almost certainly this is to do with converting your bass to active. Have you tried starting with all the knobs set to "neutral", i.e. no boost or cut at all? If that's still giving you a sharp increase in gain, then see whether there are trim pots you can tame it with. A good preamp should be capable of providing complete transparency as well as loads of boost and shaping, and John East makes exceedingly good preamps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBunny Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1449914439' post='2927878'] Almost certainly this is to do with converting your bass to active. [/quote] +1. Almost certainly too much gain on the East. I have 3 East pre-Amps, (well 2 are ACG but same principle), and in the Instructions John suggests that minimum gain on the pre-amp is sufficient for most installations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted December 12, 2015 Author Share Posted December 12, 2015 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1449914439' post='2927878'] Almost certainly this is to do with converting your bass to active. Have you tried starting with all the knobs set to "neutral", i.e. no boost or cut at all? If that's still giving you a sharp increase in gain, then see whether there are trim pots you can tame it with. A good preamp should be capable of providing complete transparency as well as loads of boost and shaping, and John East makes exceedingly good preamps. [/quote] yes there are trim pots - my thoughts were that the one i bought on the forum here might have been trimmed high so will adjust it down - but i also bought a brand new uni-pre from john east to put in my status and that was also very high - also have a trb which is active which ive used with the head but the yamaha cicrcuit seems nowhere near as big as the east will have a fiddle with them when i can find a teenie screwdriver what would you suggest? wind them right back the minimum and then slowly wind back up until they seem to be around about the same sort of output level as the yamaha which has always been fine? ta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 What you really want is for your bass to sound passive and exactly as it was before until you decide otherwise and start either changing the level (boost and/or cut) or changing the sound (tone-shaping). In theory (and usually in practice too) it is possible to set the controls of an on-board preamp so that they effectively "do nothing". That gives you a reliable, flat platform from which to start using the preamp. If I were you, I'd set the preamp knobs to as flat as you can, then set the trim knobs to produce exactly the same volume as if there was no preamp fitted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted December 12, 2015 Author Share Posted December 12, 2015 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1449918674' post='2927921'] What you really want is for your bass to sound passive and exactly as it was before until you decide otherwise and start either changing the level (boost and/or cut) or changing the sound (tone-shaping). In theory (and usually in practice too) it is possible to set the controls of an on-board preamp so that they effectively "do nothing". That gives you a reliable, flat platform from which to start using the preamp. If I were you, I'd set the preamp knobs to as flat as you can, then set the trim knobs to produce exactly the same volume as if there was no preamp fitted. [/quote] marvellous - thanks will give it a go later when i find the teenie screwdrivers possible trip to maplins as i need to buy a little battery tag connector as the one in the yammy just bust so another little soldering job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBunny Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1449918674' post='2927921'] What you really want is for your bass to sound passive and exactly as it was before until you decide otherwise and start either changing the level (boost and/or cut) or changing the sound (tone-shaping). In theory (and usually in practice too) it is possible to set the controls of an on-board preamp so that they effectively "do nothing". That gives you a reliable, flat platform from which to start using the preamp. If I were you, I'd set the preamp knobs to as flat as you can, then set the trim knobs to produce exactly the same volume as if there was no preamp fitted. [/quote] Unless the East pre-amp is the "flat response" version, there is already a pre-shape built in even with everything flat. I'm sure if you speak to John, he will tell you how to dial it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 J East Pre-amps are very very powerful. I had a J-retro for a while and kept it in passive mode because I found the active mode a bit too intimidating! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebassmusic Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 I’ve read your post and had a look at the manuals for your gear to find out what they do and how they operate. I have a couple of questions to start with: What sort of settings did you have your bass and amp eq’s set at? Have you tried your bass straight into the amps active input, [b][u]without[/u][/b] the compressor in the effects loop? How did it sound? Have you tried your bass straight into the amps active input, [b][u]with[/u][/b] the compressor in the effects loop but [b][u]with[/u][/b] the bypass switch enabled? How did it sound? Have you tried your bass straight into the amp [b][u]with[/u][/b] the compressor in the effects loop but [b][u]without[/u][/b] the bypass switch enabled? What were the compressor settings? How did it sound? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 [quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1449913174' post='2927867'] recently purchased on the sale forum here a nice little dbx160a rack compressor - ive tried this in line in fromt of the amp input and also in the send/return loop (where i am informed it will do its job to best effect) [/quote] I think you could probably do with a little more understanding on either what a compressor does, or what a typical FX send/return does - or possibly even both. Your compressor is basically a automated gain control which will reduce your gain proportionally every time your signal is above a threshold level. If you have the output gain set to 0, it will only produce the same or lower level than the input. This should normally be in-line with the signal. Your FX loop is in parallel with the signal path, and so is really intented for additive effects (like chorus, reverb, delay, flanging). If you put a compressor in the FX loop, all you're doing is adding the compressed signal to the direct signal. No effect will be audible unless you use a whole load of make-up gain (output gain on the compressor) to raise the level of the effect. But it's really not where a compressor should be - unless you're after some unusual effect that I can't think off. And, while I think everyone else is likely to be right in guessing that it's the active pre in the bass that's giving the extra gain - it's worth checking that you don't have some massive make-up gain set on the compressor? Also, there's nothing to stop you, with the compressor in-line with the bass and the amp, using the make-up gain to drop the overall input to the amp. But that's not exactly the most effective gain structure in your signal chain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomBass Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 I didn't know the LH500 has a parallel effects loop, well there ya go. Bit naff as there's no blend control either, which kinda restricts it somewhat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete.young Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 [quote name='RandomBass' timestamp='1450101103' post='2929540'] I didn't know the LH500 has a parallel effects loop, well there ya go. Bit naff as there's no blend control either, which kinda restricts it somewhat. [/quote] I don't think it does either. Pretty sure it's serial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Either that, or surreal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barkin Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 [quote name='pete.young' timestamp='1450126085' post='2929905'] I don't think it does either. Pretty sure it's serial. [/quote] I'm pretty sure you're right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 (edited) [quote name='RandomBass' timestamp='1450101103' post='2929540'] I didn't know the LH500 has a parallel effects loop, well there ya go. Bit naff as there's no blend control either, which kinda restricts it somewhat. [/quote] Well, while I don't know, this from the manual implies that it's a traditional parallel send/return loop, as it mentions the use of only reverb/delay effect - nothing about dynamic effects: [color=#000080]EFFECTS SEND jack - Use this 1/4” unbalanced jack to send low impedance (100 ohm) signals from the Model LH500 to a professional outboard effects processor such as a reverb, echo, chorus, flanger, or harmonizer device. EFFECTS RETURN jack - Use this 1/4” unbalanced jack to return low impedance (600 ohm) signals to the Model LH500 and LH1000 from a professional outboard effects processor.[/color] [quote name='barkin' timestamp='1450182989' post='2930306'] I'm pretty sure you're right. [/quote] To test this out, rather than just guessing, plug unconnected cables into both the send and return jacks - I suspect there will be no break in the signal chain, which would tell you that this is a parallel loop. If you lose signal, then it is indeed a serial effects loop (better known as an insert). Although I've never come across an effects send/return which doesn't work this way - although I never realised that for years, which eventually explained why some effects weren't working for me as desired... Edited December 15, 2015 by Alec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJ Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 [quote name='Alec' timestamp='1450092040' post='2929437'] And, while I think everyone else is likely to be right in guessing that it's the active pre in the bass that's giving the extra gain - it's worth checking that you don't have some massive make-up gain set on the compressor? [/quote] Also, check whether the compressor has a mic/line switch and check your running on the line level if your putting it in your loop, or mic level if your sticking it in front of the pre-amp where it belongs imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 The trim pots on the East preamp do not take the output down to the same level as passive, for the same setting on the volume control. Even the lowest setting represents a significant boost. This is definitely the case for my u-Retro, can't speak for the newer models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barkin Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 [quote name='Alec' timestamp='1450187491' post='2930362'] Well, while I don't know... . . . To test this out, rather than just guessing... [/quote] Who's guessing...? [quote name='Alec' timestamp='1450187491' post='2930362'] ... plug unconnected cables into both the send and return jacks - I suspect there will be no break in the signal chain, which would tell you that this is a parallel loop. If you lose signal, then it is indeed a serial effects loop (better known as an insert). Although I've never come across an effects send/return which doesn't work this way - although I never realised that for years, which eventually explained why some effects weren't working for me as desired... [/quote] Thanks for the teach-in, but I'm well aware of the difference. To be absolutely clear, the LH500 has a serial effects loop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomBass Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 If your amp is too loud then you need a quieter one. Please send me your LH500 and I will send you my 200w Trace Elliot head in return. Ahem.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomBass Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1450126415' post='2929909'] Either that, or surreal. [/quote] Its taken me 4 days to get that. Doh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 [quote name='barkin' timestamp='1450182989' post='2930306'] I'm pretty sure you're right. [/quote] [quote name='barkin' timestamp='1450451953' post='2932992'] Who's guessing...? To be absolutely clear, the LH500 has a serial effects loop. [/quote] From your first "pretty sure" response I thought you were. You now appear more certain. That's fine. As I didn't know, and no-one else was certain, and the manual was implying that it was a parallel effects loop, then a simple test to confirm one way or another is a sensible thing to do. I've lost track of the times when some simple testing shows that something isn't configured as I assumed it would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twigman Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Volume knobs (like motorcycle throttles) work both ways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 So what you're saying is, his amp now needs a front brake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomBass Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1450463026' post='2933161'] So what you're saying is, his amp now needs a front brake? [/quote] That's a Triumph of a joke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norris Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 [quote name='RandomBass' timestamp='1450465826' post='2933179'] That's a Triumph of a joke [/quote] Yamahahahaha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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