Gigging and the costs - what would you do in this situation?

[Number6]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1449445067' post='2923663']


In the states our bar gigs are four hours long. Are you saying you would haul full PA and lights and play for 4 hours for free?

Blue
[/quote]

Possibly Blue possibly not.

Depends on factors such as venue (do we like it) and location (can our friends / fans(?!?) travel there) Do we know the engineer (some you trust and some you don't) and which other bands are on the bill (it's nice to work with some bands and not as much with some others).

The list isn't exhaustive.

I certainly wouldn't rule it out doing it for nowt if it took our fancy.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1449445067' post='2923663']
In the states our bar gigs are four hours long. Are you saying you would haul full PA and lights and play for 4 hours for free?

Blue
[/quote]

I played full time 'pro' for a number of years; 5-hour sets with dance bands, on drums, Saturday and Sunday most week-ends in the summer season, and got paid ( and even,sometimes, a social security payment..!). That didn't stop me from playing other gigs with other formations, sometimes for free or petrol money, if I felt like it. Fast forward to retirement from a later IT career, during which I followed our eldest's ska/rock group, either as sound man or lighter, for free. I now play (more rarely, it's true...) with our two sons and a couple of chums; we gig half a dozen times in the year, usually, just for the pleasure of doing it, and because we're asked, by those who know us. Our repertoire of pop/rock covers, such as RATM, REM, Smashing Pumpkins, Noir Désir, Bashung, Bowie, DeUS and many more. We're serious when we play, rehearse regularly, have and give a good time. Yes, we do it for nothing, whatever the length of set (usually 2 x 1-hour sets...). We provide our own PA, backline, lights and all. There are many folks that like to play, have rehearsed to get good enough and are willing to spend their time enjoying a great day, from loading the truck until sitting back in an armchair at 2 in the morning, having given a good evening's entertainment to a few hundred people. It's not so difficult to understand, I hope. Yes, we could get paid. Yes, we're sometimes offered, and usually refuse, or take it and give it away. Some folks spend a week-end stock-car racing, at their expense. Others may do sky diving. We do rock and roll. It's getting more and more wearing as the decades pass, but I'll see about fitting my drums around a wheelchair before giving up. Maybe soon, too..!

Edited December 7, 2015 by Dad3353

[Number6]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1449447632' post='2923675']


I played full time 'pro' for a number of years; 5-hour sets with dance bands, on drums, Saturday and Sunday most week-ends in the summer season, and got paid ( and even,sometimes, a social security payment..!). That didn't stop me from playing other gigs with other formations, sometimes for free or petrol money, if I felt like it. Fast forward to retirement from a later IT career, during which I followed our eldest's ska/rock group, either as sound man or lighter, for free. I now play (more rarely, it's true...) with our two sons and a couple of chums; we gig half a dozen times in the year, usually, just for the pleasure of doing it, and because we're asked, by those who know us. Our repertoire of pop/rock covers, such as RATM, REM, Smashing Pumpkins, Noir Désir, Bashung, Bowie, DeUS and many more. We're serious when we play, rehearse regularly, have and give a good time. Yes, we do it for nothing, whatever the length of set (usually 2 x 1-hour sets...). We provide our own PA, backline, lights and all. There are many folks that like to play, have rehearsed to get good enough and are willing to spend their time enjoying a great day, from loading the truck until sitting back in an armchair at 2 in the morning, having given a good evening's entertainment to a few hundred people. It's not so difficult to understand, I hope. Yes, we could get paid. Yes, we're sometimes offered, and usually refuse, or take it and give it away. Some folks spend a week-end stock-car racing, at their expense. Others may do sky diving. We do rock and roll. It's getting more and more wearing as the decades pass, but I'll see about fitting my drums around a wheelchair before giving up. Maybe soon, too..!
[/quote]

I can absolutely relate to this Dad.....We just enjoy being a band and it suits us. Sometimes we earn a few quid and cover costs sometimes we don't but we always try to enjoy ourselves.

I respect that Blue does it as a job and needs to earn from it. My day job earns me enough to be in a band 👍

[Naetharu]

[quote name='Number6' timestamp='1449448285' post='2923678']
I can absolutely relate to this Dad.....We just enjoy being a band and it suits us. Sometimes we earn a few quid and cover costs sometimes we don't but we always try to enjoy ourselves.

I respect that Blue does it as a job and needs to earn from it. My day job earns me enough to be in a band
[/quote]

This is pretty much where we are all at. We each have a day job of some kind and the band is something we do as a hobby in the evenings. It would be fantastic if we can break even on the band (i.e. earn enough from gigs to cover the practice room costs etc.) but I don't think any of us are looking at it as a way to make money.

Perhaps its a little different too since we are an originals band. I guess if we were playing covers then we would be looking to get bookings to do pubs/functions/parties/etc. and the money would come with that. But as an all originals we're just happy to get out there and have the fantastic experience of people enjoying the stuff we have written and performed.

[spectoremg]

[quote name='Naetharu' timestamp='1449339511' post='2922772']
In this case there is no charge on the door. We will get a cut from the bar profits however, but I think we can expect to go in and make a (smallsih) loss.
[/quote]Not that old 'cut of the bar profits' gag

[blue]

[quote name='Number6' timestamp='1449448285' post='2923678']


I can absolutely relate to this Dad.....We just enjoy being a band and it suits us. Sometimes we earn a few quid and cover costs sometimes we don't but we always try to enjoy ourselves.

I respect that Blue does it as a job and needs to earn from it. My day job earns me enough to be in a band 👍
[/quote]

We love being a band, we love entertaining, we love to play, we love the crowd and we love being financially compensated for all the work and time we have invested in our craft.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='Naetharu' timestamp='1449432189' post='2923499']
Hi folks,

Thank you to everyone for your input - its been really helpful when it comes to thinking things through.

In the end we managed to call in a couple of favours and it looks as if we can put the whole thing on for free. We managed to get a sound-engineer who needs to do a live show for his degree course at the local music college and so offered to cover for free. He comes complete with a nice PA courtesy of his college too which is fantastic. We've also managed to negotiate a free venue connected to the same college - we keep the door money and they get the bar money which is fine with us.

All in all, it looks as if we're going to be able to run the whole night at no cost to any of the bands. We want to encourage everyone possible to come and check us out so we're not charging a door fee which is fine - none of us expect to make money from the band right now anyhow.

It's been a bit of a nightmare to organise but it looks to be a happy ending all the same.
[/quote]

Cool, let us know how the gig goes.

Good luck

Blue

[TimR]

Just to clarify "Pay to Play" is a specific setup that promotors used to do and may still do.

The band would pay a set fee and would be promised that they'd get a return of the door money dependant on how many of their fans came to watch.

There was usually a sting as the person on the door wouldn't ask which band the guest was going to see and would then not tick your sheet. Sometimes they'd be told but not tick the sheet anyway.

Often you could bring 100 people to the gig, which was enough to guarantee that you should have been paid some money back. But would be left at the end arguing with the promoter who would have maybe 15 people on your list.

It was a scam of the highest order.

Putting on your own show and controlling the door yourself isn't "Pay to Play", it's financing a gig upfront and hopefully making money, it's how most proper gigs should be run.

If you're an originals band and want to create a buzz, charging form the door shouldn't turn people away, especially not your friends if you explain to them you have to pay to put on the gig and you price it right and sell tickets beforehand.

Edited December 7, 2015 by TimR

[pierreganseman]

I know personally I would never ever play for free anymore.

In those cases there's always somebody making money but you ... and the "exposure" means most time absolutely nothing, only somebody selling you a "dream" based on the fact he's got the advantage as lets face it he could have chosen 50 other band on that night but yours...

Maybe i'm old and bitter ...

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1449346226' post='2922841']
I'm about as old as any of you, and, back then (I'm a bit passed it, now... ) often would set up a concert, free entry or not, and had a great time, every time. I can honestly say that I've never, in my long career, with my own groups or working with our eldest's formation, ever been 'screwed'. I don't think I'm just lucky, nor more gullible. I [i]do [/i]think there's some ordinary, decent folks out there who can be trusted (with a bit of common sense, of course...); not [i]everyone [/i]is a charlatan.
I do despair of some here, I really do. If I was a bit more compassionate, I'd feel sorry for some.
[/quote]

I'm with Dad here, and I'm probably older than him. I used to promote everything from local band multi headers to free festivals. I can honestly say the only time I made a profit was for charity events, mainly I made a small loss financially but was rewarded by some great friends, fantastic experiences and some terrific music. One of the bands that played for free were Traffic who were huge at the time and the 101'ers soon to become the Clash. Many bands have been there, if it feels right and you can afford it then do it and have fun. Once you start getting repeat bookings from venues you can start being fussy but music in the UK has always been pretty cooperative.

[Dropzone]

IMO there should be a nominal charge for the ticket so people mentally "commit" to going.

[acidbass]

I wouldn't do it. Spend that night practicing as a band. Will never hurt and can only bring benefits further down the line. Gigging experience is great but not at cost, and if it's going to cause friction then best to leave it.

[TimR]

[quote name='Dropzone' timestamp='1449484191' post='2923830']
IMO there should be a nominal charge for the ticket so people mentally "commit" to going.
[/quote]

Yes. Also gives you an idea of how many people are likely to be there and will also get people talking about the gig in the lead up. Slightly more expensive tickets on the door.

It's not a pub gig, it's a show with several bands. People will pay.

[blue]

[quote name='pierreganseman' timestamp='1449472658' post='2923704']
I know personally I would never ever play for free anymore.

In those cases there's always somebody making money but you ... and the "exposure" means most time absolutely nothing, only somebody selling you a "dream" based on the fact he's got the advantage as lets face it he could have chosen 50 other band on that night but yours...

Maybe i'm old and bitter ...
[/quote]

I have to agree, I'm old and a bit wiser than I was 40 years ago.

Blue

[JTUK]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1449445067' post='2923663']
In the states our bar gigs are four hours long. Are you saying you would haul full PA and lights and play for 4 hours for free?

Blue
[/quote]

I wouldn't play 4 hrs..period. mate does it in Florida and he is clsoe to not being able to hack it anymore..
which knowing him and what drives him, is a real eye-opener.

Over in the U;K there are too many bands willing to follow the usual band way of doing things...
but it is a two way street... and the venue will pay you what you ask if you can make it work.

I know pubs will pay £500 plus for an act... if they can cover it. The problem is what happens
when they can't...

Since they put on two gigs a week or more, that is quite a source of gigs that has been binned.

My theory is that you should settle for a min fee... and back yourself to earn 'more' when you pack them in.

The easy way out tho, of course, is to do the bare min...but hey, that is ok..you play like you mean it,
and also for pub audiences to expect music to be free.

If we condone all this..collectively... then no wonder music is valued so cheaply..
but the flip side of this is..if music was more expensive, 80% or so of bands would never get gigs..

It is a tough call... but I've just had to put some prices up and I've been plesantly surprised at what pubs will pay...
but....a common theme here was they don't want everyone to ask for the same rate...as it makes their year long business model harder if
rates go up 15-20%

[taunton-hobbit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfz-fJdtAR0

Penny for your song....apposite?

[Number6]

A question as an aside but pertinent to the topic.

Do the Musicians Union do any recruitment and organising at all in the industry?

It seems to me there are literally thousands of musicians that are prospective members that are untapped.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Number6' timestamp='1449522879' post='2924387']
A question as an aside but pertinent to the topic.

Do the Musicians Union do any recruitment and organising at all in the industry?

It seems to me there are literally thousands of musicians that are prospective members that are untapped.
[/quote]

Too many people too willing to break the fee rate... not even sure what it is these days
and IME, you get involved with the MU when you start to work dates where it
is traditionally tied in.

[mike257]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1449408197' post='2923226']
Sorry Dad - disagree - if you are forking out money to do a gig you are paying to play regardless of how you define "self-promotion" - it has nothing to do with buying your own instruments etc. The equation is simple:

We are being paid to do a gig = not paying to play
We have to front the money to play the gig = paying to play
[/quote]

Couldn't disagree more here, from my own experience at least.

The last properly ambitious originals band I was in (a good eight years since it split, which has crept up quick!) got to a point fairly swiftly where we could pull 300-500 in to a hometown show. We did a lot of supports for touring acts, but when it came to our own shows we decided we were better served acting as the promoter and hiring the venue, promoting the show, booking the other bands ourselves. We put a fair deal together for other bands, booked people we knew were capable of bringing their own crowd in and worked our balls off to market the shows. We'd have significant up front costs in terms of venue hire, printing flyers/posters, buying in merchandise etc, but it was profitable enough for us that it funded us playing all over the country and making the band pay for itself.

You can call these things "paying to play" if you want, but what these guys are doing by hiring a venue etc for a show is taking ownership of their gigs - this comes with an increased responsibility to make it a success, and an element of financial risk, but if you're doing it right then the reward is also much much greater. Why let someone else pocket a pile of cash from your music [b]if[/b] (and that's the big 'un) you have the ability, resources and time to do the job yourself?

[TimR]

@mike

You're right as I posted earlier - "Pay to Play" is a specific business model employed by certain promoters.

Saying someone who puts up finances ahead of a gig is paying to play is ridiculous. That's what all bands do.

[blue]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1449522238' post='2924378']


I wouldn't play 4 hrs..period. mate
[/quote]

I would and I do and at 62 years old I still love it. I would just be getting warmed up after your UK two 45 minute sets.

I don't have a long list of don't or dislikes in this business. The only one I can think if is playing for free.

Blue

[TimR]

Yes but it's a different environment.

I've played for 4 hours, a matinee and an evening show. That's pretty close to what Blue does, the audience don't stay for the whole four hours.

[Number6]

I wonder what the comparisons of pay are between a US 4 hour gig and a UK 2 x 45 min gig actually are?

[Twigman]

How much does a rehearsal room cost?
If you look at it as another rehearsal with some other people in the room then £40 for the band for the night doesn't seem like much to lose.

[JTUK]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1449573933' post='2924700']
Yes but it's a different environment.

I've played for 4 hours, a matinee and an evening show. That's pretty close to what Blue does, the audience don't stay for the whole four hours.
[/quote]

I get that....or rather I think it is another example of the U.S working cheap...
just like waitressing and tips.. and how they need the latter to make up their wage.

If I had to play 4 hrs so the bar could come and go as they pleased and you had 2 or 3 versions
of an audience, I'd think I wasn't doing enough to keep them...

However, 4 hrs of music is just not practical in a bar and a 2 hr attention span is tops for an attentive
audience.

Also, that period would dictate you'd need 2-3 lead vocals and it is hard enough getting one decent one..
let alone 3.

I don't think I'd be doing bar gigs in the U.S... it just wouldn't be my idea of fun...