redstriper Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Do people generally ask permission from the copyright holder before performing or recording a cover version? Is it a legal requirement? There are a lot of videos of covers on youtube - have they all been cleared by the writers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBass Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 [quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1430778995' post='2764570'] Do people generally ask permission from the copyright holder before performing or recording a cover version? Is it a legal requirement? There are a lot of videos of covers on youtube - have they all been cleared by the writers? [/quote] What's the purpose of the cover? I've never asked permission, but have given credit to the writer(s) performer(s) of the original version, as well as the distributor etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnDave Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 (edited) If you plan to perform them in public the venue needs a PRS licence, and if you sell or give away for promotional purposes recordings then you need to apply (and pay) for a PRS licence. Edited May 4, 2015 by FinnDave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1430780069' post='2764581'] If you plan to perform them in public the venue needs a PRS licence, and if you sell or give away for promotional purposes recordings then you need to apply (and pay) for a PRS licence. [/quote] ^ This hairy fellow speak the truth ^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacey Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 PRS LOST the court case to force live covers bands to be covered by PRS as they are emulating not recording. They made great effort to hide this and do threaten landlords who put bands on. The two issues of recording songs and covering them in a band are miles apart legally and should not be on the same page. Where they catch people out is playing recorded music between sets. Th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) Landlords used to have to submit setlists to PRS in case of cover infringement, is this no longer the case? I know the Exeter Arms in Oxford fell foul of this a few years ago Edited May 5, 2015 by MoonBassAlpha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1430827434' post='2764899'] Landlords used to have to submit setlists to PRS in case of cover infringement, is this no longer the case? I know the Exeter Arms in Oxford fell foul of this a few years ago [/quote] Set lists are submitted to the PRS so that the writers (and publishers) of the songs preformed can get the royalties due to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ras52 Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='spacey' timestamp='1430812142' post='2764670'] PRS LOST the court case to force live covers bands to be covered by PRS as they are emulating not recording. They made great effort to hide this and do threaten landlords who put bands on. The two issues of recording songs and covering them in a band are miles apart legally and should not be on the same page. Where they catch people out is playing recorded music between sets. Th [/quote] That doesn't sound right: are you confusing PRS with MCPS and/or PPL? PRS collects royalties due to the composer, usually paid via a publisher. So if I publicly perform an Ed Sheeran song which Ed has recorded on his album, Ed the writer is due royalies, but nothing is due to Ed the performer or his record company. If Ed's own version is played on the jukebox, that's a different matter: Ed the writer is still due royalties as the writer, but this time his recording company are due MCPS royalites as the owner of the recording, and Ed the performer who played on the record is due PPL royalties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 Can anyone answer my OP? Do you have to ask permission from the [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]copyright holder before performing or recording a cover version?[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Is it a legal requirement?[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]There are a lot of videos of covers on youtube - have they all been cleared by the writers? [/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The reason I ask is because a friend recorded a cover version and posted it on youtube[/font][/color], without getting any permission from the copyright holder. The original composer has gone mad and demanded it be removed, which it has - but they are still very angry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBass Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1430831579' post='2764966'] Can anyone answer my OP? Do you have to ask permission from the [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]copyright holder before performing or recording a cover version?[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Is it a legal requirement?[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]There are a lot of videos of covers on youtube - have they all been cleared by the writers? [/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The reason I ask is because a friend recorded a cover version and posted it on youtube[/font][/color], without getting any permission from the copyright holder. The original composer has gone mad and demanded it be removed, which it has - but they are still very angry. [/quote] This is the first instance of such a thing happening. As far as I understand it, you are NOT in breach of copyright IF; you do not specify what you are playing, i.e.; you don't explain what the melody is, you don't claim ownership, and you at the very least, give credit to the relevant sources. I'd be interested to know what the cover was, and how the cover was made and what it included. I've done covers myself and have thus far had no issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1430831579' post='2764966'] Can anyone answer my OP? Do you have to ask permission from the [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]copyright holder before performing or recording a cover version?[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Is it a legal requirement?[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]There are a lot of videos of covers on youtube - have they all been cleared by the writers? [/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The reason I ask is because a friend recorded a cover version and posted it on youtube[/font][/color], without getting any permission from the copyright holder. The original composer has gone mad and demanded it be removed, which it has - but they are still very angry. [/quote] Basically the rule is that a live performance of a cover does not require any permission while a recording for public consumption (irrespective of whether any money is being charged for it) does. However whether or not unlicensed/unsanctioned recordings will be tolerated by the copyright holders is down to a number of factors so that in reality there is no hard and fast rule as to which covers will be allowed and which will be served with take down notices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1430831579' post='2764966'] Can anyone answer my OP? Do you have to ask permission from the [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]copyright holder before performing or recording a cover version?[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Is it a legal requirement?[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]There are a lot of videos of covers on youtube - have they all been cleared by the writers? [/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The reason I ask is because a friend recorded a cover version and posted it on youtube[/font][/color], without getting any permission from the copyright holder. The original composer has gone mad and demanded it be removed, which it has - but they are still very angry. [/quote] You don't need a bunch of forumites. You need a proper Entertainment lawyer! And as stated above - banging out a cover tune in a pub is a different kettle of whelks to actually recording a version and effectively releasing it on youtube! If your mate was just recording it for fun to show that he could do it, then he's really got nothing to worry about. But if he tried to make any money from it, or that his version reduced the sales of the real one - then he has caused damage to the copyright holder. Whether the copyright holder can be arsed to go after him in court will depend on the amount of damage the copyright holder can prove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) [quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1430832500' post='2764973'] T[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]his is the first instance of such a thing happening. As far as I understand it, you are NOT in breach of copyright IF; you do not spe[/font]cify what you are playing, i.e.; you don't explain what the melody is, you don't claim ownership, and you at the very least, give credit to the relevant sources. I'd be interested to know what the cover was, and how the cover was made and what it included. I've done covers myself and have thus far had no issues. [/quote] [size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Hi James - was it you that posted that brilliant cover of Superstition on youtube? If so did you get permission from Stevie? This is the song my friend covered, he did ask for permission but he had no reply until it went on youtube.[/font][/size] [size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]He played all the instruments and someone else did the vocal.[/font][/size] [size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]He gave [color=#141823]full credit to the songwriter, in addition to an undertaking to use the recording strictly for non-commercial purposes.[/color][/font][/size] This is the original version - [media]http://youtu.be/sqSl7r9EC38[/media] Edited May 5, 2015 by redstriper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBass Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1430833267' post='2764988'] [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Hi James - was it you that posted that brilliant cover of Superstition on youtube? If so did you get permission from Stevie? This is the song my friend covered, he did ask for permission but he had no reply until it went on youtube.[/font] [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]He played all the instruments and someone else did the vocal.[/font] [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]He gave [color=#141823]full credit to the songwriter, in addition to an undertaking to use the recording strictly for non-commercial purposes.[/color][/font] [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][url="https://soundcloud.com/neil-w-2/guide-protect"][color=#141823]https://soundcloud.com/neil-w-2/guide-protect[/color][/url][/font] This is the original version - [media]http://youtu.be/sqSl7r9EC38[/media] [/quote] Hey man, wasn't me I'm afraid! However I have some new videos about to go live within the next month or so, I took my old account down for a thorough re-branding! But I haven't asked any permissions yet. I use my recordings and covers as a self-promotional tool, advertising myself as a player, and as a teacher. Though I've learnt the basics of copyright law, I'm no expert. In fact, when I contacted PRS, MCPS, PPL, and the MU all told me different things. One said I needed a license, the other said not us, another told me that so long as no monetary gain in my favour, or dramatic loss of business in the holder/publisher etc. I'd be ok, and then another told me that I'd be covered under YouTubes license. As for your friends cover, I don't see why there would be any issue. He's not claimed ownership, he's not tried to gain from it. He could always state it was for academic purposes? I know that 99% of the time excludes you from copyright infringement(Sic) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ras52 Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Here we go.... http://diymusician.cdbaby.com/2012/03/on-posting-cover-songs-on-youtube-music-licensing-law-explained/ So this looks like you [b]do [/b]need a licence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) [quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1430834208' post='2765006'] Hey man, wasn't me I'm afraid! However I have some new videos about to go live within the next month or so, I took my old account down for a thorough re-branding! But I haven't asked any permissions yet. I use my recordings and covers as a self-promotional tool, advertising myself as a player, and as a teacher. Though I've learnt the basics of copyright law, I'm no expert. In fact, when I contacted PRS, MCPS, PPL, and the MU all told me different things. One said I needed a license, the other said not us, another told me that so long as no monetary gain in my favour, or dramatic loss of business in the holder/publisher etc. I'd be ok, and then another told me that I'd be covered under YouTubes license. As for your friends cover, I don't see why there would be any issue. He's not claimed ownership, he's not tried to gain from it. He could always state it was for academic purposes? [u][i][b]I know that 99% of the time excludes you from copyright infringement(Sic)[/b][/i][/u] [/quote] Not if you publish it on the web!! As a recent example I remember when Stuart Clayton did Metallica's "Nothing Else Matters" - it couldn't go in the book because the permissions hadn't come through in time for the publication deadline. A book teaching people to play a piece is clearly for academic use - and yet the permission of the copyright holder was needed. Claiming that something was for academic purposes when that isn't true would be a lie - your mate better have at least 1 student! Edited May 5, 2015 by fretmeister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBass Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 [quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1430847617' post='2765198'] Not if you publish it on the web!! As a recent example I remember when Stuart Clayton did Metallica's "Nothing Else Matters" - it couldn't go in the book because the permissions hadn't come through in time for the publication deadline. A book teaching people to play a piece is clearly for academic use - and yet the permission of the copyright holder was needed. Claiming that something was for academic purposes when that isn't true would be a lie - your mate better have at least 1 student! [/quote] Not my mate fortunately! But I have done the academic purposes claim, fortunately I am a freelance teacher! Interesting to hear of that issue with the book! While I have some knowledge of the workings of Copyright, as I've stated, I'm far far far from proficient enough to have my advice and experiences taken verbatim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inthedoghouse Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 (edited) The OP also asked about posting cover versions on YouTube. Somehow YouTube automatically recognises uploads as being copyrighted material. As you can see, the uploader doesn't need to do anything but acknowledge that it is it copyright. Edited May 6, 2015 by inthedoghouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anaxcrosswords Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 I often wonder where responsibility lies when it comes to live performance. Most of us are used to playing at pubs/clubs and other established live venues where you can pretty much take for granted that a licence is in place. But we do some private functions at other types of venue – we’ve got one in a school hall in a week or so. I’d be surprised if the school has the requisite licence, but who has responsibility for checking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 A bunch of footballers and myself who were bedroom musicians at the time, played an awful version of Browned Eyed Girl at our presentation night a few years ago just for a laugh. I uploaded the video to YouTube a couple of days later just so people could relive the moment, but within a few hours of doing so, I received an email from Van Morrison's management stating that they will take legal action if I did not remove it immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 I thought youtube had some sort of system that allowed copyright holders to to object with a blue mark (I think) a copyright violation, 3 'blue marks' and your account is suspended Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 [quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1430934110' post='2766142'] A bunch of footballers and myself who were bedroom musicians at the time, played an [color=#ff0000][u]awful version[/u][/color] of Browned Eyed Girl at our presentation night a few years ago just for a laugh. I uploaded the video to YouTube a couple of days later just so people could relive the moment, but within a few hours of doing so, I received an email from Van Morrison's management stating that they will take legal action if I did not remove it immediately. [/quote] maybe that was why, misrepresentation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ras52 Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 [quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1430935043' post='2766157'] I thought youtube had some sort of system that allowed copyright holders to to object with a blue mark (I think) a copyright violation, 3 'blue marks' and your account is suspended [/quote] There's a system whereby the rights owner can "claim" the work, and then get a share of the ad revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 [quote name='lowhand_mike' timestamp='1430936240' post='2766167'] maybe that was why, misrepresentation [/quote]You could well be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 think this topic would be good to have links to the relevant bodies to contact to get the rights to recording and playing covers, thats if anyone knows what they are and make it a sticky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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