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silverfoxnik

212s v 210s

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Hi Folks,

I've been using a Hughes & Kettner 4 x 10 that I bought from The Wigfinder General for a year now and it sounds great to me..It weighs a ton but that's worth it because it fills the room and can take anything you throw at it!

But the guys in my band want me to use something smaller on stage because of all the usual space issues at pub gigs etc, etc. So, I've been trying out my GK Backline 2 x 10 cab, but to my ears, it just doesn't have the depth to it that I like.

Would a 2 x 12 cab be a good way to go or is this just a case of me buying the right brand of 2 x 10 or re-adjusting my ears to a different, smaller sound???

I've even been looking at buying a 1 x 15 combo like the GK 700RB that's on sale here at the moment but am undecided what to do at the moment, so any advice much appreciated!

Cheers

Nik

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Most 2x12" cabs are the same size as 4x10" cabs. The ones that are smaller have less bottom, as bass sensitivity is tied in with cab size. A typical 2x10" will be significantly quieter than your 4x10" and therefore run out of bottom much sooner. I'm not quite sure why your bandmates want you to downsize your rig, it's not as if you'll save much space!

Alex

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I'd stick to the 4 x 10 cab if that's what sounds good to you!

It's your gear, so what's it got to do with the band?

Seems strange to me that they think *your* gear is *their* buisiness ;-)

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I find a 2*10 with tweeter has quite enough low end for me, but I guess if you want that P-bass style 'thud' it wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.
You could look into a 1*15 with a tweeter possibly, my wee MAG115 cab sounds pretty damn good by itself with some high end boost on the EQ.

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I have a 6x10 that has a smaller 'footprint' than any of the guitarists that I work with. If someone else is transporting your gear that might be slightly different but I bet getting a smaller cab wouldn't save you a vast amount of useable space.

If you must change (as others have said, it is your gear so...) then you could consider something like a Schroeder or a BFM (if you fancy a bit of DIY) which is about a small as you can get and still have enough punch for a standalone cab. The 2 options I've given are just off the cuff and they achieve different results by differing methods but there are options available, you just have to consider 'why'.

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Use two 2x10s vertically stacked. You'll have as much low end as a 4x10, better midrange response and dispersion and the smallest possible footprint on stage.

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[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='25615' date='Jul 1 2007, 03:47 PM']Use two 2x10s vertically stacked. You'll have as much low end as a 4x10, better midrange response and dispersion and the smallest possible footprint on stage.[/quote]

Bill - how does that work exactly or is that like asking for an explanation of relativity theory?

Thanks for all the replies folks - much food for thought! I transport my gear and it's on wheels so it doesn't affect the other band members that way. It really is a space issue and especially so because I always share the same side of the stage with the keyboard player...

I use 5 string basses and I find the 2x10 doesn't deliver on the low B, hence the question of what cab to use.

So no 2x12 advocates then??

Nik

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[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='25642' date='Jul 1 2007, 04:39 PM']Bill - how does that work exactly or is that like asking for an explanation of relativity theory?[/quote]

Side by side speakers interact with each other in a bad way to cause comb filtering (peaks and troughs in response) as you move sideways. A vertical line of speakers disperses much more evenly. Also the dispersion in a given plane of a group of speakers producing the same signal is inversely proportional to their size in that plane. So a vertical line of 10" speakers will have narrow dispersion vertically (less sound bouncing off floor and ceiling) and wide dispersion horizontally (good for getting heard all round the stage and venue).

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='25642' date='Jul 1 2007, 04:39 PM']It really is a space issue and especially so because I always share the same side of the stage with the keyboard player...[/quote]

That seems crazy! Can you put the keyboard player's amp on top of yours?

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='25642' date='Jul 1 2007, 04:39 PM']I use 5 string basses and I find the 2x10 doesn't deliver on the low B, hence the question of what cab to use.[/quote]

This has a very small footprint and unbeatable response down to low B:



If your band is LOUD then you may need two, in which case you stack them vertically:



Alex

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I can't set myself up as an expert here but following advice on the old BW I bought a second Markbass 2x10 traveller cab and stacked them vertically.

The footprint on stage was tiny. The sound could be heard well both by me and the audience. It was plenty loud, sounded deep enough for my rock covers band.

Might be your solution.

Only changed because smaller car forced me into a one cab solution. (Schroeder 1212L, wonderful cab IMO)

After saying that I think the band have a f***ing cheek telling you what gear to use. Tell THEM to get something smaller. See how well that goes down? ha !

Frank

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[quote name='machinehead' post='25651' date='Jul 1 2007, 05:19 PM']After saying that I think the band have a f***ing cheek telling you what gear to use. Tell THEM to get something smaller. See how well that goes down? ha ![/quote]

I agree! Out of all the musicians in the band the bassist has by far the greatest need for a large rig due to the physics of reproducing low frequencies. What backline does everyone else use?

Alex

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[quote name='alexclaber' post='25645' date='Jul 1 2007, 04:59 PM']Side by side speakers interact with each other in a bad way to cause comb filtering (peaks and troughs in response) as you move sideways. A vertical line of speakers disperses much more evenly. Also the dispersion in a given plane of a group of speakers producing the same signal is inversely proportional to their size in that plane. So a vertical line of 10" speakers will have narrow dispersion vertically (less sound bouncing off floor and ceiling) and wide dispersion horizontally (good for getting heard all round the stage and venue).
That seems crazy! Can you put the keyboard player's amp on top of yours?
This has a very small footprint and unbeatable response down to low B:



If your band is LOUD then you may need two, in which case you stack them vertically:



Alex[/quote]

Thanks for that explanation Alex - I understand a lot more now.

What speakers are in your rig (very nice by the way!) and am I right that, in the one cabinet set-up, you've got something underneath the cab so that it's pointing upwards?

By the way, the band aren't being in any way dictatorial on this, they just think it would be easier if we can get more space on stage which would be good. They use small set-ups themselves and think I could probably keep the sound quality and save space by following their example, which may be true. They all agree that my 4x10 sounds best though.

Nik

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[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='25684' date='Jul 1 2007, 06:18 PM']What speakers are in your rig (very nice by the way!) and am I right that, in the one cabinet set-up, you've got something underneath the cab so that it's pointing upwards?[/quote]

The cabs are Acme Low-B2's - www.acmebass.com - they're a really nice 3-way design that's correctly tuned to give near-flat response from 41Hz-22kHz, -6dB @ 31Hz. Despite other cabs on the market claiming similar specs none of them actually come close. The downside is that the Acmes need more power to get loud but at least they can handle twice their rated power in the lows whilst most bass cabs can only handle a fraction of their rated power below 100Hz.

It sounds like your band is sensible about loudness, in which case an Acme Low-B2 should be plenty loud enough with a 500W head pushing it, and unlike the usual 2x10" it will sound big and fat. Obviously it won't go as loud as a 4x10" but it will bring as much bottom. Imported direct from the US with taxes and shipping costs figured in they're about £450 each.

Alex

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Ok, ill vote for the 2x12 cab.
Just gigged last night for the first time with my newly fixed UL212 and Christ was it loud.
I was on just 2 on my MB SA450 and i was louder than our loud drummer. tone wise it sounded great out front but it has a bit more (lot more) mid punch than im used to, even with my 1210 so ill take a few gigs to get used to it.
I will say though that the best all round, stand alone, small cab i have ever used is my UL115. Its a 1x15 with tweeter and i feel its more full range than my UL212. It goes very low but its clear and sparkles if i need to for a bit of slap.
Certainly not what you would think a 1x15 would sound like.

All IMHO of course.

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[quote name='dave_bass5' post='25742' date='Jul 1 2007, 08:51 PM']Ok, ill vote for the 2x12 cab.
Just gigged last night for the first time with my newly fixed UL212 and Christ was it loud.
I was on just 2 on my MB SA450 and i was louder than our loud drummer. tone wise it sounded great out front but it has a bit more (lot more) mid punch than im used to, even with my 1210 so ill take a few gigs to get used to it.
I will say though that the best all round, stand alone, small cab i have ever used is my UL115. Its a 1x15 with tweeter and i feel its more full range than my UL212. It goes very low but its clear and sparkles if i need to for a bit of slap.
Certainly not what you would think a 1x15 would sound like.

All IMHO of course.[/quote]

Hi Dave

Thanks for that and for introducing a vote for a 1 x 15, something I've always favoured...Alex's Acme Low-B2's sound great but obviously not cheap; what about these ULs, which I don't know anything about?

Cheers

Nik

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a tad inept on this forum, but thought I might be able to help. Ive always found that 15's and 10's were the best mix. nothin roars like a 15, but the mids and highs are most responsive with 10's or 12's. just my opinion.

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Nik
As i said my UL115 is a very full sounding 1x15 but with lots of high end f needed. It has a levle control for the tweeter on the back and i generally keep it in the centre. The cab is relativly small and i think for a 1x15 you do need a bit of size to reproduce the lows without them sounding compreseed.
I think new they sell for around £750 over here. I was actually selling mine but after the disaster i had with the UL212 and being forced to use the UL115 again im hanging on to it.

You can get more info here

[url="http://www.epifani.com/products/club115.php"]Epifani UL115[/url]

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[quote name='BigGun61' post='25761' date='Jul 1 2007, 09:30 PM']a tad inept on this forum, but thought I might be able to help. Ive always found that 15's and 10's were the best mix. nothin roars like a 15, but the mids and highs are most responsive with 10's or 12's. just my opinion.[/quote]

Yeah i agree.
I wanted to get a 210 to go with my UL115 for more volume and punch but foudn i didnt have room for two cabs in the car.
As it is the UL212 is 4ohms so im getting the full output, much to the anoyance fo my guitarist.

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[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='25642' date='Jul 1 2007, 04:39 PM']So no 2x12 advocates then??[/quote]

Hell yes! I'm more than happy with the EBS 2x12 I bought from Warwickhunt, but it
isn't any smaller than a 4x10.

Borrow an 8x10 and put it on its side. Tell em it's what Iggy Pop uses. I guarantee
they'll be glad to see the 4x10 back again :-)

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I use a Hartke 2x12 and get oodles of low end response. The cab itself is quite a bit larger than your average 2x10 though which I think is the main contributing factor. If you like the response of a 10" cone and the low-end of a 4x10 sized cabinet, how about looking at a 2x10 with a slightly larger cabinet or some kind of shelf porting to improve the bass response? E.g.

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For what it's worth I only use a 1x12" in my iAmp200 combo and it handles the low b on my 5 with no problems - and the whole thing is very small so if your after a small footprint check it out... [url="http://www.overwater.co.uk/euphonic_audio_iamp_200_wz.htm"]link[/url]

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Another 2x12 user here. I love mine but it is the same size as a 4x10. Most are because cab manufacturers make all their cabs so they can be stacked in any combination. So the EBS 2x10, 2x12, 1x15 and 4x10 all have the same footprint. The 2x10 can be put on its side though as recommended by the cab gurus.

I use an EBS 1x12 and 1x10 mini stack where space is tight but it does not really save that much and does not sound as good when pushed. Here they are together.



Genz Benz do a 2x12 that is vertically arranged and has a smaller footprint.

Edited by bass_ferret

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[quote name='pete.young' post='25774' date='Jul 1 2007, 09:50 PM']Borrow an 8x10 and put it on its side. Tell em it's what Iggy Pop uses. I guarantee
they'll be glad to see the 4x10 back again :-)[/quote]

Great idea - just got to get a couple of roadies to help me lug it to the next gig :)

Reading all the posts here (and thanks guys for all the thoughts, suggestions and links etc) has made me realise I need to do some serious investigating on this, probably by checking out what's in the good local stores and also, at things like the South East Bash coming up in August.

This has also woken me up to the fact that speaker technology and design has moved on massively since I stopped playing in 1995 and then started up again last year!! I generally hate cliches like '...raised the bar' but it definitely seems like that's the case with bass gear over the past few years.

Nik

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[quote name='bass_ferret' post='25798' date='Jul 1 2007, 05:38 PM']Another 2x12 user here. I love mine but it is the same size as a 4x10. Most are because cab manufacturers make all their cabs so they can be stacked in any combination.[/quote]
A skeptic might say that's only done to minimize costs/maximize profits. By building a 4x10 or 2x12 or 1x15 from the same box, changing only the baffle to suit the configuration, rather then purpose designing every configuration for the best possible performance, considerable savings may be realized. Not that I'm a skeptic... :)

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Bill
Well your right about Epifani as my UL212 is the same size as the UL410.


Nik
I have three gigs in Cornwall this weekend playing Haven holiday camps. your welcome to come along if its close to you. Ill be using my Sa450 and UL212.

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[quote name='peted' post='25783' date='Jul 1 2007, 09:58 PM']... how about looking at a 2x10 with a slightly larger cabinet or some kind of shelf porting to improve the bass response? E.g.
[/quote]

A 2x10" with larger cab volume should indeed give better bass sensitivity, all else being equal. Likewise a ported 2x10" should give better bass sensitivity than a sealed 2x10" - however it doesn't matter whether the ports are shelf/slot ports, triangular corner ports, square corner ports, round tube ports - they all work exactly the same way. So two cabs with identical internal volume and speakers, one with front slot ports of area X and length Y, and one with rear tube ports of area X and length Y, will have exactly the same frequency response. It doesn't even matter whether the ports are front, rear or side firing, as long as they are unobstructed (one port width of external clearance).

Eden have done a great job of persuading everyone that their dual slot-ported XLT cabs produce a magic amount of bass - actually their real advantage is the extra cab stiffness that all that bracing brings, they make essentially no difference to the sound.

Alex

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