Does everyone erm ....know their Key signatures?

[Grangur]

Following on from the other 2 discussions....

I find these hardest to remember

I know:
C Maj = no sharps
G Maj = #
D Maj = ##
A Maj = ###
E Maj = ####

Note this is the order of the strings from high to low

after that I get lost. Does anyone have any sneaky ways to remember the rest, or the Minor keys too, come to that?

Edited April 8, 2014 by Grangur

[ambient]

Just remember these 2 notes - F and G.

F for the flats, G for the sharps.

Go up in 4ths from each starting note for the flats, F has 1 flat, Bb has 3, Eb has 3 etc.

For the sharps go up in 5th, G has 1, D has 2, A has 3, E has 4 etc.

[Annoying Twit]

I don't know them by memory (except for the most obvious ones), but can work them out in non-real time. I tend to think of the root note of the scale, and then notes in terms of the scale degree. E.g. fourth, fifth, flat-sixth, etc. I'm open to being convinced that knowing the key signatures would significantly benefit me, and I should learn them sooner rather than later.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Annoying Twit

[sykilz]

Regarding these recent posts, in the voice of Fawlty Towers' Manuel......." I know nuuuuuuthing!".



However, I have learned some things from them, so please all continue to enlighten!

[Grangur]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1396961832' post='2419121']
I don't know them by memory (except for the most obvious ones), but can work them out in non-real time. I tend to think of the root note of the scale, and then notes in terms of the scale degree. E.g. fourth, fifth, flat-sixth, etc. I'm open to being convinced that knowing the key signatures would significantly benefit me, and I should learn them sooner rather than later.
[/quote]
Doesn't all depend on if you read music or not?
If you're simply looking to find the root note and play from the heart n' soul using "the box" for the major scale, then I guess you don't need the keys.
What you would then need is the circle of 5ths to know where to go to when you want to go up/down a key.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1396962151' post='2419126']
Doesn't all depend on if you read music or not?
If you're simply looking to find the root note and play from the heart n' soul using "the box" for the major scale, then I guess you don't need the keys.
What you would then need is the circle of 5ths to know where to go to when you want to go up/down a key.
[/quote]

My long term aim is improvised music. I definitely don't want to be limited to 'the box' of a single scale. I use notes outside the box, but am still working on being able to fluidly change box at musically appropriate times, particularly if I can do this without using the root note of the new scale/box as a pivot. However, I don't think I need to know key signatures for this, as I rarely read music, and don't have to sight read. But, if anyone wants to argue that I should prioritise key signatures, I will read what they write and seriously consider it.

[RhysP]

No, I haven't got the first idea about key signatures.

[Geek99]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1396962151' post='2419126']

Doesn't all depend on if you read music or not?
If you're simply looking to find the root note and play from the heart n' soul using "the box" for the major scale, then I guess you don't need the keys.
What you would then need is the circle of 5ths to know where to go to when you want to go up/down a key.
[/quote]
Yes - worked for me. I only started learning them after I started using circle of fifths to learn major scales in all keys.
I'm in Disneyland right now and in the "be our guest" restaurant there is some sheet music. I was chuffed to spot the key signature straight away. If you see four flats you just count round the flats cycle till you get to the one with four. There's only 12 possibilities so it's not that hard to learn

Edited April 9, 2014 by Geek99

[moonbass]

To work out a minor key signature you have to find the relative major. This is the key 3 semitones up.
So for A minor go up 3 semitones and you have C major (imagine it on a piano keyboard if that helps.) C is therefore the relative major and has the same key signature as A minor, ie no sharps or flats.
For another example, G minor. If you go up 3 semitones from G you get to Bb, so G minor has the same key signature as Bb major: 2 flats - Bb and Eb. Note that it's NOT A# major - the rule is you have to go through 3 separate letter names when going up the semitones, ie G, Ab, A, Bb.

Note there are other things to know about harmonic and melodic minors!

[2004gdavi]

It's basically whatever works for you. When I was learning I was given an acronym to help remember the order of sharps. Father Charles goes down and ends battle. hence f,c,d,d,a,e ,b. For the major scale it will be the last sharp added with a semitone up to give the name of the scale. Eg a sharp (5sharps) gives b major. The relative minor is then a minor third back (3 semitones or frets on bass) hence in this example g sharp. It works in a similar way for flats. If this is something that interests anyone a good book to get is rudiments and theory of music by the associated board of the royal schools of music , if it's still available. Hope this helps.

[Geek99]

Surely FCGDAEB ?

[lowlandtrees]

Only recently started reading bass. I play sax as well and have no problem reading for that although I have not learned all the improvising scales...only those mainly used by bands...A, C, D, E G...the bass clef kinda annoys me as I still find myself transposing to treble in my head. I think it is useful (and for me enjoyable)to learn music theory...I did 5th grade but it is not necc. Lots of folk play using ear and chord patterns/tones....eg Pino. Comes in useful when you want to note something down or remember it and certainly using Sibelius or other writing programs is more fun (if you like that kinda fun). I think that for bass the most important part of theory is harmony and using it to find interesting notes that influence the overall sound.

[2004gdavi]

Well spotted that man fcgdaeb it is. Bit of a fat finger moment on hand held phone.
Apologies but hope you get the drift.

[Bilbo]

FFS, guys. There are only 12 of them (24 if you include relative minors). Can you remember an 11 digit telephone number? Of course you can (your own, if nothing else). The lyrics to Bohemian rhapsody contains 390 words. How many of us know them all? I bet most of us do. You just have to make learning them a priority for a short time (a day or two, a week at the most).

[miles'tone]

I remember the key signatures on the bass clef stave by using:

For sharps (ascending in 5ths as they do):
Green Dolphins Are Easy Basslines For Cellos.

For flats (ascending in 4ths):
Fat Bast#rds Eat Alot Daily Gaining Calories.

So for instance if you see 5 sharps on the stave you look to the fifth word and know it's in B major. Same if you count say 4 flats on the stave you know by looking to the fourth word that it's in A etc.

Helps if you make up your own rhymes to make them easier to remember for yourself.

Edited April 10, 2014 by miles'tone

[jakenewmanbass]

easiest way to learn the key sigs is via the cycle of 4ths for flat keys and cycle of 5ths for sharp keys as you simply add a flat or a sharp as you proceed around the cycle.
eg:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=circle+of+fifths&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&imgil=YEf1TcWTJgB3mM%253A%253Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ft1.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcTHf5Yo0ZaasILFnryVLODCry39nXyymURRAsNprEUkfElMlBZV%253B1913%253B2105%253BDkwli4w2RpPgYM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.realguitarclass.com%25252Fthe-circle-of-fifths%25252F&source=iu&usg=__AEMeCozBtZT2yIZb2jsHXWwMGr4%3D&sa=X&ei=mwxHU-zBJ4Pt0gXj4oHYDg&ved=0CDIQ9QEwAQ#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=YEf1TcWTJgB3mM%253A%3BDkwli4w2RpPgYM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.realguitarclass.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2013%252F10%252FCircle-of-fifths-3.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.realguitarclass.com%252Fthe-circle-of-fifths%252F%3B1913%3B2105

[jimbobothy]

I find a little memory tool useful, the number 7 is key! If you've got the Key of E Major (has 4 #s), the flat version. EbMajor would have 3 b (4 + 3 = 7). Another example could be D Major, this key has 2 #, so DbMajor would have 5b (2 + 5 = 7 etc etc). I guess you'd at least have to know some of this before anyhow for it to be of any use!

[skej21]

I honestly don't get it. Why spend time learning a rhyme or riddle just to help remember something else? Cut out the middle man and just learn the relevant info at the start!

[miles'tone]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1397165252' post='2421489']
easiest way to learn the key sigs is via the cycle of 4ths for flat keys and cycle of 5ths for sharp keys as you simply add a flat or a sharp as you proceed around the cycle.
eg:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=circle+of+fifths&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&imgil=YEf1TcWTJgB3mM%253A%253Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ft1.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcTHf5Yo0ZaasILFnryVLODCry39nXyymURRAsNprEUkfElMlBZV%253B1913%253B2105%253BDkwli4w2RpPgYM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.realguitarclass.com%25252Fthe-circle-of-fifths%25252F&source=iu&usg=__AEMeCozBtZT2yIZb2jsHXWwMGr4%3D&sa=X&ei=mwxHU-zBJ4Pt0gXj4oHYDg&ved=0CDIQ9QEwAQ#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=YEf1TcWTJgB3mM%253A%3BDkwli4w2RpPgYM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.realguitarclass.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2013%252F10%252FCircle-of-fifths-3.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.realguitarclass.com%252Fthe-circle-of-fifths%252F%3B1913%3B2105
[/quote]

That's what I meant in my post above yours. I've edited it now to make more sense ta.

[skej21]

[quote name='jimbobothy' timestamp='1397165718' post='2421498']
I find a little memory tool useful, the number 7 is key! If you've got the Key of E Major (has 4 #s), the flat version. EbMajor would have 3 b (4 + 3 = 7). Another example could be D Major, this key has 2 #, so DbMajor would have 5b (2 + 5 = 7 etc etc). I guess you'd at least have to know some of this before anyhow for it to be of any use!
[/quote]

Except for C# which has 7 #s and the flat version has 7 flats. That makes 14.

Edited April 10, 2014 by skej21

[Geek99]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1397119190' post='2420752']
FFS, guys. There are only 12 of them (24 if you include relative minors). Can you remember an 11 digit telephone number? Of course you can (your own, if nothing else). The lyrics to Bohemian rhapsody contains 390 words. How many of us know them all? I bet most of us do. You just have to make learning them a priority for a short time (a day or two, a week at the most).
[/quote]
Yep - way simpler than learning to read English.

[Geek99]

[quote name='2004gdavi' timestamp='1397117580' post='2420723']
Well spotted that man fcgdaeb it is. Bit of a fat finger moment on hand held phone.
Apologies but hope you get the drift.
[/quote]
NP
Just doing my bored, on holiday, being a pedant best

Edited April 11, 2014 by Geek99

[EddyGlee]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1397166199' post='2421507']
Except for C# which has 7 #s and the flat version has 7 flats. That makes 14.
[/quote]

Hi Matt,

I think you’ve misunderstood what Jim was saying here! .. You’ve double flattened C# to get Cb ..meaning you’ve moved a whole tone, not a semitone(1 flat) Thus adding 2 x 7 to get 14.

If, as Jim says you flattern C# (7#) you get C (0) .. so answer is 7
Then if you flattern C (0) you get Cb (7b) so answer is still 7

Regards
Chris

[ambient]

[quote name='moonbass' timestamp='1397022694' post='2419745']
To work out a minor key signature you have to find the relative major. This is the key 3 semitones up.
So for A minor go up 3 semitones and you have C major (imagine it on a piano keyboard if that helps.) C is therefore the relative major and has the same key signature as A minor, ie no sharps or flats.
For another example, G minor. If you go up 3 semitones from G you get to Bb, so G minor has the same key signature as Bb major: 2 flats - Bb and Eb. Note that it's NOT A# major - the rule is you have to go through 3 separate letter names when going up the semitones, ie G, Ab, A, Bb.

Note there are other things to know about harmonic and melodic minors!
[/quote]

Harmonic and melodic minors don't have key signatures, you just put in the accidentals as required.

[ambient]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1396964110' post='2419169']
My long term aim is improvised music. I definitely don't want to be limited to 'the box' of a single scale. I use notes outside the box, but am still working on being able to fluidly change box at musically appropriate times, particularly if I can do this without using the root note of the new scale/box as a pivot. However, I don't think I need to know key signatures for this, as I rarely read music, and don't have to sight read. But, if anyone wants to argue that I should prioritise key signatures, I will read what they write and seriously consider it.
[/quote]

I don't think you necessarily need to be able to recognise a key signature on a staff for what you want to do.

But it'd be useful to know what sharps or flats there are in a key. You wouldn't want to unintentionally play a C natural over an A major chord for instance.

Playing improvised music is cool, but I'd have though it calls for a reasonable knowledge of harmony to be able to pull it off successfully. Though I agree being able to sightread isn't necessarily a prerequisite.