Basschat Competition Bass (13 Guitar Co.) - CONCLUSION!

[Skol303]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1359549805' post='1956381']If you're ever in the area you're more than welcome to try out my ACG. It's in Drop C though [/quote]
Wow, that's a super-kind offer Rick I do occasionally meander through Cambridgeshire with work - I'll bear it in mind. Be good to buy you a beer anyway!

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1359560144' post='1956651']The most pleasingly bassy sound which fits what you describe, that I have ever got comes from an old kay pick up (yep, from a cheap EB3alike i got for £25). Slammed near the neck in my Fretless roadstar/warmoth bitsa. I am keeping the other one for the moment the one I am using breaks irrepairably, due to being from a Kay.[/quote]
It's often the way, innit?! I've got a cheap Hohner Rockwood that I de-fretted, and the p'ups on the that have a surprisingly nice tone - virtually no high end, just bagloads of lows which can sound quite nice. In fact, the EQ pot does practically nothing - it kinda varies from lows, to lots of lows (PS: this one is the 'project bass' I'm planning to strip down to the wood and re-paint fairly soon).

Edited January 30, 2013 by Skol303

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1359548062' post='1956333']
Hi folks,

Quick update on this project: the woods and construction type have been decided (see above) and the materials are now on order. This gives some time for me to start pondering what sort of pick ups and EQ would best suit this bass...

Paul ([url="http://www.13guitarco.com/"]13 Guitar Co[/url]) has offered lots of very useful advice on this already. And as always, I'll be trusting his own judgement on what's best. But in the spirit of this project I also wanted to get some feedback from fellow Basschatters on what you'd recommend, or what you've found works well on the basses you own.

[size=5][b]So... what are your thoughts and suggestions for choice of pickups?[/b][/size]

Paul has been helpful in giving me some things to think about, which I'll share here too. He's described the pickups and strings as being crucial for the overall 'sound' of the instrument, whereas the woods and construction contribute to its natural EQ and envelope (attack, sustain and decay). I think in terms of mixing audio, so this description made good sense to me.

Overall, I'm looking for a warm, low tone from this bass - more bottom end than top/treble. I play fingerstyle (rarely use a pick and almost never slap). The sound I have in my head is akin to modern dub/reggae recordings... I'll try to put together some audio samples or YouTube clips and upload them here, as that's probably the best way of communicating the sound I'm envisaging (rather than calling it "fat" or whatever ).

Here are some useful links that Paul has shared on this topic, which might interest some of you:

[url="http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2010/11/16/bass-pickups-a-guide-to-formulating-your-sound/"]http://www.notreble....ing-your-sound/[/url]

[url="http://www.frudua.com/how_pickups_work.htm"]http://www.frudua.co...ickups_work.htm[/url]

Comments and suggestions very welcome as always!
[/quote]

To me, it would have to be single coil pickups. I find the difference between a humbucker and a single coil is that fatness you describe, but also more pronounced highs, which you obviously don't want. As far as winds a materials go, i'm not entirely sure. More winds gives a pickup more response, so maybe a pickup with slightly less winds than average is what you want? I wouldn't know what sort of copper winding you would use though, early fender pickups used one called heavy formvar, but if you are going down the single coil route, at this point, you might as well get a couple of reissue pickups made.

Unless both coils on a humbucker had less winds than usual, it might give it less response in the high range and maintain the fatness of it... it's worth a chat with an expert on it.

[Skol303]

^ Thanks Milty! I'm going to do some homework on this over the weekend. Interesting to hear your thoughts on the difference between single coil and humbuckers. I'm going to investigate the types used by bass players I like (i.e. whose tone I like) and scribble some notes.

I'm very aware that the p'ups are going to have a BIG impact on the sound, so it's not something I'm going to rush into. Besides, I'm really enjoying learning about all this stuff

Thanks again for the input mate.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1359751489' post='1959980']
^ Thanks Milty! I'm going to do some homework on this over the weekend. Interesting to hear your thoughts on the difference between single coil and humbuckers. I'm going to investigate the types used by bass players I like (i.e. whose tone I like) and scribble some notes.

I'm very aware that the p'ups are going to have a BIG impact on the sound, so it's not something I'm going to rush into. Besides, I'm really enjoying learning about all this stuff

Thanks again for the input mate.
[/quote]

No trouble, i'm really interested in lutherie, so i'm enjoying this thread. Can't wait to see some early build pics!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1359548062' post='1956333']
Hi folks,

Quick update on this project: the woods and construction type have been decided (see above) and the materials are now on order. This gives some time for me to start pondering what sort of pick ups and EQ would best suit this bass...

Paul ([url="http://www.13guitarco.com/"]13 Guitar Co[/url]) has offered lots of very useful advice on this already. And as always, I'll be trusting his own judgement on what's best. But in the spirit of this project I also wanted to get some feedback from fellow Basschatters on what you'd recommend, or what you've found works well on the basses you own.

[size=5][b]So... what are your thoughts and suggestions for choice of pickups?[/b][/size]

Paul has been helpful in giving me some things to think about, which I'll share here too. He's described the pickups and strings as being crucial for the overall 'sound' of the instrument, whereas the woods and construction contribute to its natural EQ and envelope (attack, sustain and decay). I think in terms of mixing audio, so this description made good sense to me.

Overall, I'm looking for a warm, low tone from this bass - more bottom end than top/treble. I play fingerstyle (rarely use a pick and almost never slap). The sound I have in my head is akin to modern dub/reggae recordings... I'll try to put together some audio samples or YouTube clips and upload them here, as that's probably the best way of communicating the sound I'm envisaging (rather than calling it "fat" or whatever ).

Here are some useful links that Paul has shared on this topic, which might interest some of you:

[url="http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2010/11/16/bass-pickups-a-guide-to-formulating-your-sound/"]http://www.notreble....ing-your-sound/[/url]

[url="http://www.frudua.com/how_pickups_work.htm"]http://www.frudua.co...ickups_work.htm[/url]

Comments and suggestions very welcome as always!
[/quote]

If you've ever seen my other posts when these questions are asked you know that on the whole I'm not a big fan of on-board pre-amps in basses.

While people like John East are able to achieve remarkable things with their pre-amps, IMO you're nearly always onto a looser when you are constrained by what you can fit into the average bass guitar control cavity and power reliably using PP3 batteries. Compare that with what is possible in your actual amplifier when space and power are virtually unrestricted and I hope you'll see where I'm coming from.

Plus I'm a great believer in keeping the EQ path as simple as possible. I can't help but feel that many people who rely on active electronics in the their basses have either failed to set up the gain structure on their amp correctly or simply have the wrong amp for the sound that they want.

I will however make exceptions for electronics that do something the standard amplifier tone controls don't or circuits that are able to apply tone shaping to each pickup individually. So the ACG EQ01 ticks both of those boxes. Normally I'd hesitate recommending this as a lot of bassists simply can't grasp how to make the filter system work for them, but seeing as you are a good synth programmer (based on the evidence of your recordings) you are one of the few people who will understand it instantly.

As for pickups I've not really got any advice for you. The biggest, fattest, deepest sounding pickups I've come across are the Gus tubes in the humbucking configuration of my black Gus G3 bass. They are exclusive to Simon Farmer's instruments, but I believe that they are made for him by Kent Armstrong, so they might be able to suggest the closest match from their standard range.

[JimBobTTD]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1359600866' post='1957454']


To me, it would have to be single coil pickups. I find the difference between a humbucker and a single coil is that fatness you describe, but also more pronounced highs, which you obviously don't want. As far as winds a materials go, i'm not entirely sure. More winds gives a pickup more response, so maybe a pickup with slightly less winds than average is what you want? I wouldn't know what sort of copper winding you would use though, early fender pickups used one called heavy formvar, but if you are going down the single coil route, at this point, you might as well get a couple of reissue pickups made.

Unless both coils on a humbucker had less winds than usual, it might give it less response in the high range and maintain the fatness of it... it's worth a chat with an expert on it.
[/quote]

Just goes to show how differently people can perceive things.

I would describe single coils to be thin and with pronounced highs and humbuckers to be fat and with pronounced lows [with a huge amount of small print to be added at the bottom of the post as it is never so black and white]; ie the polar opposite of what you said!

Edited February 3, 2013 by JimBobTTD

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='JimBobTTD' timestamp='1359867330' post='1961376']
Just goes to show how differently people can perceive things.

I would describe single coils to be thin and with pronounced highs and humbuckers to be fat and with pronounced lows [with a huge amount of small print to be added at the bottom of the post as it is never so black and white]; ie the polar opposite of what you said!
[/quote]

No no, that's what i meant, the humbuckers are fatter and rounder, but in the ones i have tried at least, the high end has been pretty well defined too. Single coils aren't as fat but are still quite pronounced in the highs i find.

[Skol303]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1359823121' post='1960805']If you've ever seen my other posts when these questions are asked you know that on the whole I'm not a big fan of on-board pre-amps in basses. While people like John East are able to achieve remarkable things with their pre-amps, IMO you're nearly always onto a looser when you are constrained by what you can fit into the average bass guitar control cavity and power reliably using PP3 batteries. Compare that with what is possible in your actual amplifier when space and power are virtually unrestricted and I hope you'll see where I'm coming from.

I will however make exceptions for electronics that do something the standard amplifier tone controls don't or circuits that are able to apply tone shaping to each pickup individually. So the ACG EQ01 ticks both of those boxes. Normally I'd hesitate recommending this as a lot of bassists simply can't grasp how to make the filter system work for them, but seeing as you are a good synth programmer (based on the evidence of your recordings) you are one of the few people who will understand it instantly.

As for pickups I've not really got any advice for you. The biggest, fattest, deepest sounding pickups I've come across are the Gus tubes in the humbucking configuration of my black Gus G3 bass. They are exclusive to Simon Farmer's instruments, but I believe that they are made for him by Kent Armstrong, so they might be able to suggest the closest match from their standard range.[/quote]

Interesting points there BRX, cheers for the input as always. I must admit that I normally tend to prefer active basses - I typically record direct from the bass into an audio interface, so I find having a pre-amp often helps in that respect. I'd certainly envisaged active electronics for this bass, but I'll take your comments on board and do some more pondering... The ACG EQ01 does look right up my street, as you mention. Perhaps little pricey (?), but that's something for me to discuss with Paul (I'm mindful of not wanting to take advantage of his generosity).

Cheers also for the heads up about Ken Armstrong. I've been browsing his product list already - looks like quality gear.

Anyway, still lots to think about

[quote name='JimBobTTD' timestamp='1359867330' post='1961376']I would describe single coils to be thin and with pronounced highs and humbuckers to be fat and with pronounced lows...[/quote]
[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1359869413' post='1961379']No no, that's what i meant, the humbuckers are fatter and rounder, but in the ones i have tried at least, the high end has been pretty well defined too. Single coils aren't as fat but are still quite pronounced in the highs i find.[/quote]

Good to see you guys agreed in the end!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1360280195' post='1968171']
Interesting points there BRX, cheers for the input as always. I must admit that I normally tend to prefer active basses - I typically record direct from the bass into an audio interface, so I find having a pre-amp often helps in that respect. I'd certainly envisaged active electronics for this bass, but I'll take your comments on board and do some more pondering... The ACG EQ01 does look right up my street, as you mention. Perhaps little pricey (?), but that's something for me to discuss with Paul (I'm mindful of not wanting to take advantage of his generosity).

Cheers also for the heads up about Ken Armstrong. I've been browsing his product list already - looks like quality gear.

Anyway, still lots to think about
[/quote]

IMO unless you are spending John East type money on an on-borard pre-amp your going to end up with something noisy and not necessarily tuned to complement the natural sound of your bass.

If your primary reason for going active is so you can buffer and impedance match the input to your recording system, I personally think you'd be better off investing in a decent channel strip with a proper instrument level input instead. That would be far more versatile sonically than anything that could be fitted into the average bass control cavity and if you got something which also had line and mic level inputs you could use it for all your acoustic sound sources.

Edited February 8, 2013 by BigRedX

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1359549669' post='1956375']
^ Nice one Charic! Great ideas there mate. I have a lot of Googling to do when I get home after work this evening... Will definitely be checking out Wizard p'ups and ACG pre-amps. Thanks for the suggestions.
[/quote]

I emailed Aaron Armstrong about pickups a while back- didn't go with him but I would have confidence to if I did again.
My recomendations pickup wise is go and play as much stuff as you can and try them yourself. I love Nordy jazz pickups but they are the opposite to what you want.
The ACG EQ01 with a Bartolini PJ set is pretty nice on my warwick - just a train ride away if you want to have a try of the preamp sometime.

[Skol303]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1360342047' post='1969041']...If your primary reason for going active is so you can buffer and impedance match the input to your recording system, I personally think you'd be better off investing in a decent channel strip with a proper instrument level input instead. That would be far more versatile sonically than anything that could be fitted into the average bass control cavity and if you got something which also had line and mic level inputs you could use it for all your acoustic sound sources.[/quote]
^ Hmmm.... that's a [i]very[/i] good point! And would add other benefits to my recording set up as you mention. I guess it's a 'familiarity' thing for me, as all of my favourite basses - at least those I've owned or otherwise played - have been active. I do have a passive bass at home but it's a cheapy P-bass copy and not up to any meaningful comparison. I think I need to get out and try some different set ups to broaden my understanding. Not that I need a good excuse for 'window shopping' basses

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1360346876' post='1969137']I emailed Aaron Armstrong about pickups a while back- didn't go with him but I would have confidence to if I did again. My recomendations pickup wise is go and play as much stuff as you can and try them yourself. I love Nordy jazz pickups but they are the opposite to what you want.The ACG EQ01 with a Bartolini PJ set is pretty nice on my warwick - just a train ride away if you want to have a try of the preamp sometime.[/quote]
Spot on, cheers Luke! That's exactly what I'm going to do. Thanks also for the heads up about Aaron Armstrong p'ups, I'm going to check those out. And a massive thanks for the offer of trying the ACG on your Warwick!! (I love BC for this sort of thing ). 'Tis only a short hop from Mancunia to Leeds as you mention, so I may well take you up on that offer mate - I have relatives over your way so could make a round trip of it. I'll let you know.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1360417066' post='1970015']

Spot on, cheers Luke! That's exactly what I'm going to do. Thanks also for the heads up about Aaron Armstrong p'ups, I'm going to check those out. And a massive thanks for the offer of trying the ACG on your Warwick!! (I love BC for this sort of thing ). 'Tis only a short hop from Mancunia to Leeds as you mention, so I may well take you up on that offer mate - I have relatives over your way so could make a round trip of it. I'll let you know.
[/quote]

coolio

[MiltyG565]

What's the word on the build now, Paul?

[Skol303]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1360777712' post='1976363']What's the word on the build now, Paul?[/quote]

Hey Milty. The wood is on order... Paul (13 Guitar Co) has a couple of other builds about to start in addition to this one, so he's just waiting for those to be decided before picking up the materials for each in a single trip. Once that's done it'll be underway.

In the meantime I'm still chewing over different types and brands of pickups & electronics. I'm coming round to something like an ACG EQ01 (as discussed above), but there more I investigate the more options crop up! Still got some homework to do there but I'm narrowing it down. I've also got make a decision on the string spacing - which should be fairly straighforward - and after that I [i]think[/i] we have everything covered. At least the important stuff.

I'll keep you posted mate

[Mornats]

Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet?

[Skol303]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1361010915' post='1979661']Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet?[/quote]

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1360976550' post='1979480']
Hey Milty. The wood is on order... Paul (13 Guitar Co) has a couple of other builds about to start in addition to this one, so he's just waiting for those to be decided before picking up the materials for each in a single trip. Once that's done it'll be underway.

In the meantime I'm still chewing over different types and brands of pickups & electronics. I'm coming round to something like an ACG EQ01 (as discussed above), but there more I investigate the more options crop up! Still got some homework to do there but I'm narrowing it down. I've also got make a decision on the string spacing - which should be fairly straighforward - and after that I [i]think[/i] we have everything covered. At least the important stuff.

I'll keep you posted mate
[/quote]

Good, good!


[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1361150664' post='1982016']



[/quote]

Story. Of. My. Life.

[Skol303]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361166852' post='1982045']Story. Of. My. Life.[/quote]

The company I work for is a creative agency and we often use that diagram (jokingly) to describe our dealings with clients over design decisions... often a merry-go-round but without the 'merry' part!

PS: I've started to get towards a decision on the pickups/electronics (cue drum roll...), so I'll be updating y'all on that in due course. Stay tuned for the next exciting installment! Etc.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1361195824' post='1982519']
The company I work for is a creative agency and we often use that diagram (jokingly) to describe our dealings with clients over design decisions... often a merry-go-round but without the 'merry' part!

PS: I've started to get towards a decision on the pickups/electronics (cue drum roll...), so I'll be updating y'all on that in due course. Stay tuned for the next exciting installment! Etc.
[/quote]

The drum is rolling, trust me

[Skol303]

Quick update... I've decided to opt for humbucker/soapbar pickups (rather than single coil) and an active pre-amp. Thanks again for the advice given, which I genuinely took onboard and has led me to being keen for a pre-amp that offers additional functionality (akin to those made by ACG), rather than just an amp for an amp's sake - good points made by BRX about that.

Not wanting to get too excited as yet, but Paul (13 guitar Co) is in touch with a guy who makes custom electronics and so there's possibility that the pre-amp might be built from scratch. Early days, but could be very interesting!

As always, I'll keep you posted...

Paul

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1361466909' post='1986178']
Quick update... I've decided to opt for humbucker/soapbar pickups (rather than single coil) and an active pre-amp. Thanks again for the advice given, which I genuinely took onboard and has led me to being keen for a pre-amp that offers additional functionality (akin to those made by ACG), rather than just an amp for an amp's sake - good points made by BRX about that.

Not wanting to get too excited as yet, but Paul (13 guitar Co) is in touch with a guy who makes custom electronics and so there's possibility that the pre-amp might be built from scratch. Early days, but could be very interesting!

As always, I'll keep you posted...

Paul
[/quote]

Good stuff!

EDIT- unintentionally brought up my obsession with religion

Edited February 22, 2013 by MiltyG565

[Skol303]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361467698' post='1986199']God stuff! [/quote]

Don't go bringing religion into it, else this thread will be locked!

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1361531125' post='1986969']
Don't go bringing religion into it, else this thread will be locked!
[/quote]

Em, oops? lol.

[charic]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1361531125' post='1986969']
Don't go bringing religion into it, else this thread will be locked!
[/quote]

IBTL

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1361534641' post='1987055']
IBTL
[/quote]

Inverted Bisexual Transexual Lesbian.