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Basschat Competition Bass (13 Guitar Co.) - CONCLUSION!


Skol303
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[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1358167281' post='1934019']
Cheers Milty, I couldn't agree more! I think Paul's love of his craft speaks for itself. First time I saw his website I was blown away by his handiwork - very impressive and a great diversity of designs.

Anyway thanks for the comments mate and feel free to post suggestions here whenever you like - I appreciate your input :)
[/quote]

I must take a look at the website later on. I could give you some input, but it wouldn't do any justice to the bass. :D

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[b][size=5]Ok folks, I need your opinion on some material and design choices![/size][/b]

1) [b]Neck type:[/b] should I opt for a bolt-on neck, a glue-in neck or a through-neck? I'm currently veering towards a through-neck to help give the bass the dark/warm tone with plenty of sustain that I'm looking for. It'll also make the upper frets easier to reach than with a bolt-on (especially as this bass is a 28-fretter!). That said, a bolt-on neck would maybe give it more attack, and I guess a glue-in design is somewhere between the two. What do you think?

2) [b]Materials:[/b] the current choice is for a mahogany body, a wenge neck (spliced with either maple or mahogany) and a rosewood or ebony fretboard (either Indian ebony, solid black in colour, or Makassar ebony - slightly softer with black/brown striping). If I opt for a through-neck then it would need to made out of mahogany with wenge splices - rather than vice versa, as would be possible with a bolt-on or glue-in neck.

Other details to be confirmed:

- [b]Frets:[/b] jumbo for better sustain and tone.

- [b]Headstock angle:[/b] 14 degrees (the steeper the angle, the more sharp/tight the tone - just learnt this from Paul! I never knew...). I'd like this bass to have a low/warm tone - not too bright - hence the recommended angle.

- [b]Fretboard radius:[/b] 20" is the current suggestion. I'm going to check the basses I own (2 in total - very meagre by Basschat standards!) and compare. Having done some homework on the subject, 20" sounds about right to me. For anybody unfamiliar with fretboard radius, a larger radius = a flatter fretboard = a lower action, which is what I'm looking for (most basses seem to range from 17-22").

Thoughts/suggestions on any of the above would be very welcome! Cheers :)

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[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1358181170' post='1934377']
[b][size=5]Ok folks, I need your opinion on some material and design choices![/size][/b]

1) [b]Neck type:[/b] should I opt for a bolt-on neck, a glue-in neck or a through-neck? I'm currently veering towards a through-neck to help give the bass the dark/warm tone with plenty of sustain that I'm looking for. It'll also make the upper frets easier to reach than with a bolt-on (especially as this bass is a 28-fretter!). That said, a bolt-on neck would maybe give it more attack, and I guess a glue-in design is somewhere between the two. What do you think?

Thoughts/suggestions on any of the above would be very welcome! Cheers :)
[/quote]

The bass frequencies that run through the timber aren't stopped by bolted or glued joints, so whatever low frequency is running along the neck will run into the body too, so long as they are joined together in some form, so i wouldn't choose a through neck based on that alone. What sort of material will the neck be made from? If it's maple, that will give the body a brighter tone with a through neck design (i do believe that maple is a bright tone wood). If it was mahogany or something like wenge, it would be perfect for through neck, because of the bassiness of those woods. But it depends what you want, and there are advantages to them all. I suppose with so many frets (going well out of bass frequency) you want those high notes to resonate as good as they can through the body, so through neck would be ideal there, but again, it depends on the wood and what you want. Treble frequencies don't move across joints as well as bass frequencies do. Personally, i would prefer a bolt on or glued neck, because it just makes it a bit easier for maintenance, or if you ever did irreparable damage to the neck. But through joints have their advantages too. What timber did you choose for the neck in the end anyway?

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[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1358181170' post='1934377']

2) [b]Materials:[/b] the current choice is for a mahogany body, a wenge neck (spliced with either maple or mahogany) and a rosewood or ebony fretboard (either Indian ebony, solid black in colour, or Makassar ebony - slightly softer with black/brown striping). If I opt for a through-neck then it would need to made out of mahogany with wenge splices - rather than vice versa, as would be possible with a bolt-on or glue-in neck.

[/quote]

Ah, never mind! If the through neck HAS to be made from mahogany, i would say go for that. Mahogany has a lovely rich bassy tone, and the through neck will let the high notes resonate well through the body.

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[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1358181170' post='1934377']
- [b]Fretboard radius:[/b] 20" is the current suggestion. I'm going to check the basses I own (2 in total - very meagre by Basschat standards!) and compare. Having done some homework on the subject, 20" sounds about right to me. For anybody unfamiliar with fretboard radius, a larger radius = a flatter fretboard = a lower action, which is what I'm looking for (most basses seem to range from 17-22").

[/quote]

I would actually say that is a VERY flat fretboard, and you might even struggle to notice any curve to it. I wouldn't say most range from 17" to 22" in fretboard radius, i would say most range from about 8" to 16". Basically, imagine a 40" wide cylinder, lined internally with sandpaper, then picture the neck of your bass meeting it, (i'm assuming your neck won't be particularly wide for a 5 string?) it's not going to curve the fretboard much at all. It's not what i would choose anyway, but some people like a flatish fretboard.

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[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1358201713' post='1934909']Ah, never mind! If the through neck HAS to be made from mahogany, i would say go for that. Mahogany has a lovely rich bassy tone, and the through neck will let the high notes resonate well through the body.[/quote]
Definitely! I'm veering strongly towards a through-neck made from mahogany (same material as the body) with wenge splices, which should give a great tone. I'm going to chew it over a little longer first - trying not to be hasty and enjoying reading about wood! (not something I admit to every day) - but that's looking like the winning combination.

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1358202156' post='1934923']I would actually say that is a VERY flat fretboard, and you might even struggle to notice any curve to it.[/quote]
Good point. Do you play a Fender by any chance? I only ask because I used to own one that had a much smaller radius - must have been something like 10" or whatever. Played fine, but I switched to an Ibanez much later on that had a flatter board with a lower action and I much preferred it - suited my style of playing better and I just found it a bit 'faster' (but that could be the mojo talking ;) ). But anyway, I'm happy with a flat board - I just need to compare a 20" radius to the basses I'm familiar with to make sure that's going to be right for me (can't say it's something I've ever really considered until now - I'm learning lots through this process!).

PS: this is what's been decided for the fretboard - Makassar ebony. Looks bloomin' gorgeous! :gas:

Edited by Skol303
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[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1358206185' post='1935023']
Definitely! I'm veering strongly towards a through-neck made from mahogany (same material as the body) with wenge splices, which should give a great tone. I'm going to chew it over a little longer first - trying not to be hasty and enjoying reading about wood! (not something I admit to every day) - but that's looking like the winning combination.


Good point. Do you play a Fender by any chance? I only ask because I used to own one that had a much smaller radius - must have been something like 10" or whatever. Played fine, but I switched to an Ibanez much later on that had a flatter board with a lower action and I much preferred it - suited my style of playing better and I just found it a bit 'faster' (but that could be the mojo talking ;) ). But anyway, I'm happy with a flat board - I just need to compare a 20" radius to the basses I'm familiar with to make sure that's going to be right for me (can't say it's something I've ever really considered until now - I'm learning lots through this process!).

PS: this is what's been decided for the fretboard - Makassar ebony. Looks bloomin' gorgeous! :gas:


[/quote]

As they would say in Flight Of The Conchords- "Flup". That looks great! It really highlights the grain of the timber (something you don't notice with rosewood or maple from any distance).

I do play a fender, yes, but i've also played musicmans and other mass produced stuff, never a custom ordered thing though. I think the difference in a couple of inches can make all the difference. When you think about it, the radius is half of the diameter, so for every inch you increase it by, you are actually increasing the diameter by 2 inches.

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[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1358207178' post='1935051']Unless we are talking about radius in a purely practical sense and meaning the curvature, and not really the mathematical meaning of it. I'm not sure anymore, my brain is frazzled after today.[/quote]

Hehe! I know the feeling ;) This diagram should help. The radius refers to the degree of curvature you get from a circle drawn at that size - i.e. a 20" radius fretboard means that the curve of the 'board is taken from a circle with a 20" radius, hence a large-ish circle with a shallow curve. The smaller the radius, the steeper the curve and vice-versa.

Edited by Skol303
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Remember to take a pinch of salt with you when reading about woods and neck types. Dig enough and you will find someone talking about a dark sounding maple body or a heavy piece of swamp ash etc.

I have a neck-through bass made of mahogany and wenge with mahogany wings with a maple cap. I think this would be a great combination for a neck-through. It is a top of the line Ibanez from the mid 90s. I have another Ibanez with a bolt-on neck which, whilst being mostly the same, feels very different. I prefer the neck-through.

A 28" radius sounds uncomfortably flat to me. I believe that Ibanez do 12".

But to be honest, I think you should be talking to the builder about woods and construction styles.

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[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1358212014' post='1935104']
Hehe! I know the feeling ;) This diagram should help. The radius refers to the degree of curvature you get from a circle drawn at that size - i.e. a 20" radius fretboard means that the curve of the 'board is taken from a circle with a 20" radius, hence a large-ish circle with a shallow curve. The smaller the radius, the steeper the curve and vice-versa.


[/quote]

Ah, i knew i was getting the wrong end of the stick there in my hazy tiredness. If you were going for 20", you probably might as well just get a flat fretboard.

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[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1358181170' post='1934377']
[b][size=5]Ok folks, I need your opinion on some material and design choices![/size][/b]

1) [b]Neck type:[/b] should I opt for a bolt-on neck, a glue-in neck or a through-neck? I'm currently veering towards a through-neck to help give the bass the dark/warm tone with plenty of sustain that I'm looking for. It'll also make the upper frets easier to reach than with a bolt-on (especially as this bass is a 28-fretter!). That said, a bolt-on neck would maybe give it more attack, and I guess a glue-in design is somewhere between the two. What do you think?

2) [b]Materials:[/b] the current choice is for a mahogany body, a wenge neck (spliced with either maple or mahogany) and a rosewood or ebony fretboard (either Indian ebony, solid black in colour, or Makassar ebony - slightly softer with black/brown striping). If I opt for a through-neck then it would need to made out of mahogany with wenge splices - rather than vice versa, as would be possible with a bolt-on or glue-in neck.

Other details to be confirmed:

- [b]Frets:[/b] jumbo for better sustain and tone.

- [b]Headstock angle:[/b] 14 degrees (the steeper the angle, the more sharp/tight the tone - just learnt this from Paul! I never knew...). I'd like this bass to have a low/warm tone - not too bright - hence the recommended angle.

- [b]Fretboard radius:[/b] 20" is the current suggestion. I'm going to check the basses I own (2 in total - very meagre by Basschat standards!) and compare. Having done some homework on the subject, 20" sounds about right to me. For anybody unfamiliar with fretboard radius, a larger radius = a flatter fretboard = a lower action, which is what I'm looking for (most basses seem to range from 17-22").

Thoughts/suggestions on any of the above would be very welcome! Cheers :)
[/quote]

While it's nice to ruminate on these things, aren't they what your luthier should be advising you on? That's their area of expertise after all.

The way I see it when ordering a custom bass, you tell your luthier how you want it to play, sound and look and then they go away and draw up a specification that satisfies those conditions.

I'm sure the neck joint does make some difference to the sound of the bass, but I can't see exactly how you would quantify it. I have basses with through neck, set neck and bolt-on neck construction, but the basses are so different to each other in other respects that there is simply no way of saying exactly what contribution the neck joint makes to the sound. Therefore I would go with the construction that gives the best playability for you, because that is a known quantity. Given that you have a 2+ octave neck you should brobably be considering either through-neck or a heelless set neck construction, otherwise it defeats the object of having so many frets.

As for woods, again this is where you should be asking the luthier what's right in order to get the sound, weight and balance that you are after. If they are going to be visible then pick some ones with grain patters you find attractive. Otherwise go with whatever meets the three requirements above.

It's my experience and from reading various build threads here that too many musicians get bogged down in details they really shouldn't need to be dealing with when ordering a custom bass. It's also my opinion that unless you are making a fairly close copy of an existing bass trying to match woods from one style of bass to another to get the same sound is a bit of a non-starter.

You have to trust your luthier to make the right decisions that will get you the bass that you want.

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[quote name='JimBobTTD' timestamp='1358227663' post='1935125']I have a neck-through bass made of mahogany and wenge with mahogany wings with a maple cap. I think this would be a great combination for a neck-through.[/quote]
That's good to hear, cheers for the input! Likewise, I've pretty much settled on a through-neck made from mahogany and wenge - seems like the perfect choice given the tone I'm after.

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1358234080' post='1935138']Fwiw I tend toward bolt ons mainly because if (god forbid) the neck gets damaged beyond repair then a bolt on is much more salvagable[/quote]
Good point mate... I know there's more risk involved in owning a through-neck, but I'm planning on being extra careful with this bass! Plus a through-neck design really suits this particular bass I think - especially with it having those additional upper frets. But I know what you mean - I'm certainly going to handle with care ;)

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1358250959' post='1935449']While it's nice to ruminate on these things, aren't they what your luthier should be advising you on? That's their area of expertise after all. The way I see it when ordering a custom bass, you tell your luthier how you want it to play, sound and look and then they go away and draw up a specification that satisfies those conditions.[/quote]
Absolutely! And rest assured Paul at 13 Guitar Co is doing just that. We're swapping a lot of emails outside of this forum and all of the material/design choices are either based on his own expertise or throughly checked by him to make sure it's going to deliver the bass I'm looking for. Sorry, I probably should have mentioned all this earlier in the thread! The point of seeking feedback through this build diary is simply to gain insight into other people's experiences, which in turn might spark off new ideas for this particular build - which has certainly been the case already. Plus, with the bass being a competition prize, I felt it right to involve the BC community in a more meaningful way than if the project was being self-funded. But in short, yeah... the buck definitely stops with Paul! :D

Cheers also for the comments about a through-neck design. I was a little concerned myself that the 'heel' of bolt-on design might hamper the playability of the upper frets. I discussed it with Paul and he mentioned that the design of a bolt-on could account for this, but that ultimately a through-neck would most likely be the better option, which is what I'm now pretty much settled on.

Anyway, thanks for the good advice - really appreciated!

Edited by Skol303
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Regarding bolt-on neck basses, I've not come across one where the joint doesn't hamper your playing in some way. The better ones manage to move the joint closer to the end of the neck, but they generally do this by offering more frets than a standard Fender-style neck so you still end up with difficult to access frets - they're just higher up the neck. I'd want to play a bolt-on neck example with improved upper neck access to check it really did deliver before committing to this route.

As for bolt-on necks making repairs easier, in almost 40 years of playing and owning guitars an basses I have never had any problems with necks that would have me investigating this option.

It is possible to build a set neck with as little obstruction to the frets as a through-neck design. I own a Burns bass with a remarkable heelless set-neck design (the bass was made in 1962 and the design dates from 1959) that would put most modern set-necks to shame with it's ingenuity and elegance.

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[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1358257704' post='1935679']
As for bolt-on necks making repairs easier, in almost 40 years of playing and owning guitars an basses I have never had any problems with necks that would have me investigating this option.
[/quote]

It's called paranoia :lol:

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I would not go for a bolt on neck just because 'you might break it' or whatever. They are not the way to make a 'real' bass. IMO folks. If someone offers to make you a neck through you would be a fool to say "no, can you please screw the neck on instead".
Plus regarding earlier post about timber choices, specs and the luthier* should know etc. The BASSMAKER can only have his own opinions. The kettle of fish here is a f***in big one and there is nothing wrong with asking the general public for opinions. Just because someone has agreed to make you a bass it does not mean that their opinions are the law. Ask away man. I'm absolutely sure that Paul is offering all the support you need.

* To me a luthier is a maker of a wide range of stringed instruments, acoustic and electric. Someone (myself included) who only makes electric guitars is in no way a luthier in my mind. Stradavari, now that's a luthier. Of course many would dissagree but I think it unfair to genuine luthiers to lump us all in the same category.

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[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1358259864' post='1935759']
I would not go for a bolt on neck just because 'you might break it' or whatever. They are not the way to make a 'real' bass. IMO folks. If someone offers to make you a neck through you would be a fool to say "no, can you please screw the neck on instead".

[/quote]

I'm intrigued to know what would make you remove this choice when ordering a bass.

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[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1358268922' post='1936028']
I'm intrigued to know what would make you remove this choice when ordering a bass.
[/quote]

+1
I actually prefer the sound of bolt-on basses, and in my experience a well made custom bolt-on has just as much sustain as any through or set neck bass I've ever played...

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[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1358257704' post='1935679']Regarding bolt-on neck basses, I've not come across one where the joint doesn't hamper your playing in some way. The better ones manage to move the joint closer to the end of the neck, but they generally do this by offering more frets than a standard Fender-style neck so you still end up with difficult to access frets - they're just higher up the neck. I'd want to play a bolt-on neck example with improved upper neck access to check it really did deliver before committing to this route. As for bolt-on necks making repairs easier, in almost 40 years of playing and owning guitars an basses I have never had any problems with necks that would have me investigating this option.[/quote]
[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1358259864' post='1935759']
I would not go for a bolt on neck just because 'you might break it' or whatever. They are not the way to make a 'real' bass. IMO folks. If someone offers to make you a neck through you would be a fool to say "no, can you please screw the neck on instead"...I'm absolutely sure that Paul is offering all the support you need.[/quote]

^ Very useful and reassuring comments there gents, hugely appreciated! I'm pretty much set on a through-neck design, so good to hear your positive thoughts on that choice.

Paul is being great to be honest - very helpful and knowledgable, but also giving me plenty of room to be creative and suggest my own ideas. I couldn't ask for more. I'm also learning [i]loads[/i] of new things already, which is a bonus.

PS: I'd love an old Burns bass! Very nice indeed. That sounds like a particularly good one.

PPS: interesting note about what defines someone as being 'luthier'. I'd never thought about it that way. Paul makes guitars too (y'know, those tiny 6-string mini-bass things I've heard about :lol: ) and I've always used the term loosely to mean "someone who makes stringed instruments". But heh, I'm no expert! :D

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[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1358268922' post='1936028']I'm intrigued to know what would make you remove this choice when ordering a bass.[/quote]
[quote name='eude' timestamp='1358269567' post='1936045']+1I actually prefer the sound of bolt-on basses, and in my experience a well made custom bolt-on has just as much sustain as any through or set neck bass I've ever played...[/quote]

In this instance, the decision for a through-neck design is largely because it's a 28-fret bass (hence this design choice allows maximum access to the upper frets). There's also the consideration of tone: I'm looking for something warm and dark with a good sustain, and a through-neck can contribute to this (although of course there are lots of other factors to consider in determining tone - not least things like pickups, etc).

My other (two) basses are bolt-ons and I'm very happy with them. So the decision here IMO isn't about which is the 'better' choice generally, but which is the best choice for this particular bass.

Still, it'd be interesting to hear thoughts on this from people who know more about the subject than I do!

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[quote name='eude' timestamp='1358269567' post='1936045']
I actually prefer the sound of bolt-on basses...
[/quote]

How can you say this? Have you actually played two basses that were completely identical other than the manner in which the neck was attached to the body? What were they?

As I siad in a previous post I have basses with all three types of neck construction but they are also made out of completely different materials and have completely different hardware pickups and electronics fitted. I have no idea what difference the way the neck joins the body makes to the overall sound, and I doubt anyone else can.

Until someone can conclusively prove otherwise I'll be happy to go with the construction method that has a minimal impact on my playing technique.

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[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1358268922' post='1936028']
I'm intrigued to know what would make you remove this choice when ordering a bass.
[/quote]To me set and thru necks just have so much more going on. Ok we are all used to the sound of bolt on necks and indeed a well made bolt-on will not lose anything in regards sustain etc but a neck through has so much more going on. The bass as a whole feels so much more together and you get the feeling that it is all meant to be together in one finely crafted piece. Lets not forget that the bolt on neck was designed in the first instance for ease of manufacture and repair. To me bolting on necks is all a bit Frankenstein. A matter of opinion and it comes down to the individual but I really dont understand why anyone would take that route unless it's a cost issue. A well made nt is a beautiful animal whereas, to me, bolts are a bit shoddy and the heels become clumsy as f***. Smooth lines and neck/body transition is definately where it's at!

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[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1358271063' post='1936079']
How can you say this? Have you actually played two basses that were completely identical other than the manner in which the neck was attached to the body? What were they?

As I siad in a previous post I have basses with all three types of neck construction but they are also made out of completely different materials and have completely different hardware pickups and electronics fitted. I have no idea what difference the way the neck joins the body makes to the overall sound, and I doubt anyone else can.

Until someone can conclusively prove otherwise I'll be happy to go with the construction method that has a minimal impact on my playing technique.
[/quote]This! Nicely carved heels are the dogs bollocks!

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[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1358271063' post='1936079']
How can you say this? Have you actually played two basses that were completely identical other than the manner in which the neck was attached to the body? What were they?

As I siad in a previous post I have basses with all three types of neck construction but they are also made out of completely different materials and have completely different hardware pickups and electronics fitted. I have no idea what difference the way the neck joins the body makes to the overall sound, and I doubt anyone else can.

Until someone can conclusively prove otherwise I'll be happy to go with the construction method that has a minimal impact on my playing technique.
[/quote]

I've not conducted a scientific experiment, but of all the basses I've had the pleasure of playing, and that's a lot, from crumby knock off Fender copies to custom basses costing thousands of pounds, I always seem to prefer the sound of a bolt-on, there seems to be more attack to basses constructed in that manner, where neck through basses, tend to sound more organic and polite.
I guess the closest I've got to a the kind of comparison you require would be a bolt-on and neck through Warwick Thumb Bass, I much preferred the sound of the bolt-on, and it was cheaper :)
This is of course my opinion, based on my experience and my ears, I shall keep it to myself from now on ;)

Eude

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