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Warning re: Fretless Precisions

cloudburst

By cloudburst,
in Bass Guitars

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franzbassist Veteran

franzbassist

Posted
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[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1347561385' post='1802516']
To clarify the Jamerson reference, it was the fretless Precision (ref is Standing in the Shadows of Motown - Life and Music of Legendary Bassist James Jamerson) - it refers to him having played the fretless on the Supremes 'Someday, We'll Be Together' - it's actually a quote from keyboard player Earl Van Dyke who said he almost threw it at the wall and said "don't you ever let me play this piece of sh*t again". Presumably didn't work how he wanted.
[/quote]

Well there you go, apologies :blush: To make up for the error of my ways I offer up my 1970 fretless P in (viewing only) tribute....

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franzbassist Veteran

franzbassist

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[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1347575747' post='1802790']
No prob - and what a fabulous looking bass. Have you modified the controls?
[/quote]

Thanks. The original pots were long gone when I bought it so I added the P Retro pictured. I've since managed to source an original set of pots and taken it back to passive.

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EssentialTension Grand Master

EssentialTension

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[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1347399907' post='1800427']
James Jamerson - a noted upright and fretted Precision bass player, is reputed to have thrown a fretless Precision at the wall of the Motown studio, after using it for a session. Not precise enough, perhaps :mellow:
[/quote]

[quote name='walbassist' timestamp='1347516178' post='1801812']
I'm pretty sure the reputed bass was a Fender Bass V and not a fretless P.
[/quote]
I've seen the story told in that way too, and told it myself.

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1347561385' post='1802516']
... To clarify the Jamerson reference, it was the fretless Precision (ref is Standing in the Shadows of Motown - Life and Music of Legendary Bassist James Jamerson) - it refers to him having played the fretless on the Supremes 'Someday, We'll Be Together' - it's actually a quote from keyboard player Earl Van Dyke who said he almost threw it at the wall and said "don't you ever let me play this piece of sh*t again". Presumably didn't work how he wanted.
[/quote]
That certainly sounds a reliable source for the throwing incident but the text doesn't actually say it was a fretless Precision:

[quote]On a few rare sessions, James experimented a bit with a Hagstrom 8-string, an early Fender 5-string, and a fretless bass, but the results were usually unsatisfactory. (Earl Van Dyke recalled that James played the fretless on the Supremes' "Someday We'll Be Together" and almost threw it against the wall .... (pp85-86)[/quote]

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brensabre79 Community Regular

brensabre79

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[quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1347580762' post='1802839']
I have always thought the 'Precision' name was a bit of a misnomer, especially on the fretless. That big woofly sound, nothing precise about it!
[/quote]
It was the first fretted bass guitar, before that everyone used a double bass. So by virtue of the fact it had frets, so you could play the notes precisely with ease, it was named Precision Bass. So you're right a fretless Precision isn't really a Precision at all as it is anything but precise! Personally I think the Jazz Bass is better suited to the fretless disposition, although I don't use mine for jazz music. I have a Yamaha for that.

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Rick's Fine '52 Proficient

Rick's Fine '52

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[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1347727567' post='1804406']
Not a Fender bass V - it was an undisclosed make of fretless.
[/quote]

I'll stand corrected if wrong, but it is quite a famous story, which is claimed, by a fender R&D rep, to have damaged the reputation of the Bass V. I'll find the actual story at some point, its quite a famous story, as the original poster stated.

Can't imagine JJ having an issue with a fretless, as he was a doghouse player, ewhereas the Bass V, is just a dog to play!

I'm off to trawl my many books to find the story...... ;)

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EssentialTension Grand Master

EssentialTension

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[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1347742165' post='1804618']
I'll stand corrected if wrong, but it is quite a famous story, which is claimed, by a fender R&D rep, to have damaged the reputation of the Bass V. I'll find the actual story at some point, its quite a famous story, as the original poster stated.

Can't imagine JJ having an issue with a fretless, as he was a doghouse player, ewhereas the Bass V, is just a dog to play!

I'm off to trawl my many books to find the story...... ;)
[/quote]
I too have always known it as a Bass V story. I've been trawling the net for two days trying to find it but haven't come up with anything yet.

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drTStingray Mentor

drTStingray

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[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1347742165' post='1804618']
I'll stand corrected if wrong, but it is quite a famous story, which is claimed, by a fender R&D rep, to have damaged the reputation of the Bass V. I'll find the actual story at some point, its quite a famous story, as the original poster stated.

Can't imagine JJ having an issue with a fretless, as he was a doghouse player, ewhereas the Bass V, is just a dog to play!

I'm off to trawl my many books to find the story...... ;)
[/quote]

I think it extremely unlikely that Jamerson's view would have damaged the reputation of the Fender bass V especiallly as Jamerson was only really known to fellow Motown session players, Motown's hierarchy and American musos until the Dr Licks project and subsequent film (published 1989). When I first noticed Jamerson's playing (early 70s), nobody seemed to know who it was and none of the guys were credited at the time. I've never played a bass V but eyed one very suspiciously in a music shop in the late 60s - during which visit I played a Precision for the first time - and was astonished at the neck width - mind you I was only a young teenager. I have noodled on a bass V1 before - they both seem to be aimed at the baritone sound market (by having high tuned upper strings) popuralised on a number of early 60s songs, but to allow you to play bass as well - not sure how the bass was supposed to continue whilst you played the lead though............thus I suspect the bass V and V1's fortunes waned with the change in musical taste (briefly re-popuralised by Galveston by Glenn Campbell) - and the need to have a bass player as well if you were going to perform live - thus guitarists like Hank Marvin tended to use them as an additional lead instrument on occassional tracks.

I also suspect that the section in Dr Licks' book has been misread or misremembered by people and re-quoted (as I did - thinking it said Precision fretless when it just says fretless). The bass V, Hagstrom and fretless are all mentioned in the section as occassional uses (when not using his Precision), but JJ's wrath is quoted as being taken out on the fretless, by the keyboard player on the session. Based on the timing of the Supremes track, this would put it at 1968/9. What fretlesses were available then? Ampeg baby bass - Fenders? There can't be many to choose from. Although he was an upright player, the sound of an upright can help to mask the sound of slight imperfections in playing intonation (hoping not to upset upright players here) - for anyone who's played a fretless electric, there is no hiding place - imperfection in intonation is clearly audible. So if JJ wasn't used to this and was recording with it the first time he played it, it is entirely possible to imagine frustration occurring, especially as the Motown studio is described as a production line - he would thus be under pressure to nail it quickly (and have an enviable reputation for doing so normally) - and he did have a reputation for being a little volatile at times...............

For any bass player interested in R and B style bass playing, the Dr Licks book and CDs/transcriptions which come with it are a fabulous resource - there's nothing like hearing Pino, Marcus, Jack Bruce and many others play arguably some of the best pop/soul bass lines ever recorded.

It will be interesting to hear what you come up with, Essential Tension.

Also if any of the vintage buffs know what fretlesses were available in 68/69 that would also be interesting.


And whlist I think about it, my Lak(e)Land's dry as a bone.................

Edited by drTStingray
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EssentialTension Grand Master

EssentialTension

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[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1347798508' post='1805062']
... Based on the timing of the Supremes track, this would put it at 1968/9. What fretlesses were available then? Ampeg baby bass - Fenders? There can't be many to choose from ...
[/quote]
It was recorded 1969 I think, and I think the first fretless Fenders were 1970. So, although it might be possible that Jamerson had an early fretless Fender, an Ampeg might be more likely.

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1347798508' post='1805062']
... Although he was an upright player, the sound of an upright can help to mask the sound of slight imperfections in playing intonation (hoping not to upset upright players here) - for anyone who's played a fretless electric, there is no hiding place - imperfection in intonation is clearly audible ...
[/quote]
I take your point but my own experience is that it's easier to be in tune on a fretless bass guitar than on the upright but then I am from a bass guitar rather than upright background.

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1347798508' post='1805062']
It will be interesting to hear what you come up with, Essential Tension.
[/quote]
Nothing so far. :unsure:

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Rick's Fine '52 Proficient

Rick's Fine '52

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ET is correct, the first fretless P was 1970. The ampeg baby is an upright, they did 2 fretless basses with scroll headstocks, dont recall the models (From memory; AMB1 & ASB1???) , they are known as the scroll bass and devil bass, one had full depth f-holes, the other had horns, they were available from '66. Not aware of a pre-'66 production mainstream fretless?

I'll be looking into the quote later, it's somewhere, but i have alot of fender/bass books, so may take a while!! :D

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cloudburst Proficient

cloudburst

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[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1347802141' post='1805136']
ET is correct, the first fretless P was 1970. The ampeg baby is an upright, they did 2 fretless basses with scroll headstocks, dont recall the models (From memory; AMB1 & ASB1???) , they are known as the scroll bass and devil bass, one had full depth f-holes, the other had horns, they were available from '66. Not aware of a pre-'66 production mainstream fretless?

I'll be looking into the quote later, it's somewhere, but i have alot of fender/bass books, so may take a while!! :D
[/quote]

From Page 125 of "How the Fender bass changed the world":

The first production fretless bass was the Ampeg AUB-1, introduced in 1966. It had a scroll peghead, an extra-long 34.5" scale length, and a diaphragm pickup mounted under the bridge.

CB

PS: I would add a picture, but it's a god-awful looking thing and may scare small children.

Edited by cloudburst
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