Rick's Fine '52 Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1341995018' post='1727474'] This.... Personally, I don't know why some people insist on seeing design faults or outdated components as evidence of an instrument's superiority - it's like Harley Davidson riders in the motorcycle world! [/quote] I'm actually yet to hear anyone claim that a design fault is evidence of an instruments superiority, especially when talking about fenders, why would someone claim that? Having said that, if you're talking about BBOT bridges, then it clearly isnt a design issue, as they still make fenders with them, and as I've said, I've never experienced a single problem with them. If you're talkinga bout the nut access location, then yes, not the best design as i raised earlier, but it also doesnt make it superior. I think I'm struggling to see your point in the context of this thread, which is probably me, missing something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1342000291' post='1727609'] I'm actually yet to hear anyone claim that a design fault is evidence of an instruments superiority, especially when talking about fenders, why would someone claim that? Having said that, if you're talking about BBOT bridges, then it clearly isnt a design issue, as they still make fenders with them, and as I've said, I've never experienced a single problem with them. If you're talkinga bout the nut access location, then yes, not the best design as i raised earlier, but it also doesnt make it superior. I think I'm struggling to see your point in the context of this thread, which is probably me, missing something. [/quote] What I'm trying to say is that the BBOT is an outdated design from 50+ years ago, which Leo never used on any of his later creations (he went for a hi mass one). Fender still use this outdated concept because the market will not let them move onto a better design! Part of the beauty of the original fender design is that is easy to upgrade if you want. So, if you don't like the bridge it's very simple to bolt on a new one, it's easy to change pick-ups (unlike a rick, alembic, warwick, etc thru this partly down to design and partly due to popularity creating a market for aftermarket upgraded parts)....... Edited July 11, 2012 by peteb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick's Fine '52 Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1342002477' post='1727678'] What I'm trying to say is that the BBOT is an outdated design from 50+ years ago, which Leo never used on any of his later creations (he went for a hi mass one). Fender still use this outdated concept because the market will not let them move onto a [b]better[/b] design! Part of the beauty of the original fender design is that is easy to upgrade if you want. So, if you don't like the bridge it's very simple to bolt on a new one, it's easy to change pick-ups (unlike a rick, alembic, warwick, etc thru this partly down to design and partly due to popularity creating a market for aftermarket upgraded parts)....... [/quote] I think the term [i]better[/i] is very subjective in this thread, and not a given, as implied. If it works perfectly, and you have the sound you want, why would you change any component on an instrument? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 From an engineering PoV it's hard to argue that the more modern designs aren't superior. From a tonal PoV it's completely subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 [quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1342002758' post='1727692'] I think the term [i]better[/i] is very subjective in this thread, and not a given, as implied. If it works perfectly, and you have the sound you want, why would you change any component on an instrument? [/quote] [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1342002990' post='1727701'] From an engineering PoV it's hard to argue that the more modern designs aren't superior. From a tonal PoV it's completely subjective. [/quote] I take both of those points (and agree) but would suggest that the reason fender still use the BBOT bridge is because the market will not let them move away from the original design, even if it is now outdated! FWIW - I have still kept the BBOT on my Nash as it is actually pretty solid, works fine and to change it would devalue the instrument! However, I have changed the bridge on my 90s Fender, which is a massive improvement..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Why is the BBOT outdated? Has it stopped working? I'm afraid I'm in the camp that cannot hear any difference and if its a string through (like US basses have been for a long time now) its mass is irrelevant. Fender may be putting higher mass bridges but, in my opinion, its only to suit the market expectancy. Also Leo didn't move away from the BBOT, my MM basses have the same, albeit with a curved lip at the top. I think its slightly thicker steel. Fender could countersink the screws for the neck joint too but a square metal plate does an equal job more cheaply. Probably has the same effect on the tone too. Part of the appeal to me of Fender basses is their crudity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 The MM bridge is thicker and larger, this in itself is the dictionary term for more mass! Also it has solid machined saddles and two enormous mounting points too boot, the G&L is even more extreme as it one of the chunkiest bridges out there, to suggest Leo did not feel a need to improve this area is madness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubinga5 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 i wanted to put a better bridge on my jazz bass, but after a bit thought i was wondering why i really needed to... the tone of my jazz is great with new strings on it.. obviously mine has the bent metal bridge....... i really cant see a 75 jazz with a high mass bridge sounding that much better imo high mass bridges are a marketing ploy.. just like string through bodies etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Again who cares about the tone if the thing was previously falling apart as you played it? If yours are fine and you like them leave them alone, if yours like mine is not then either get another BBOT and see if that solves it or fit something, err..... better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick's Fine '52 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I would suggest if its falling apart, you ain't doing it right! (BTW, met one of your basschat friends earlier today, Neil, has a Sadowsky, we were talking about you....all good things of course!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Haha, how come you met him!? (and what a lovely Sadowsky, thats how a Fender should be ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1342111495' post='1729815'] The MM bridge is thicker and larger, this in itself is the dictionary term for more mass! Also it has solid machined saddles and two enormous mounting points too boot, the G&L is even more extreme as it one of the chunkiest bridges out there, to suggest Leo did not feel a need to improve this area is madness [/quote] Everything on a Stingray is better than a Fender (except the bassist when its in my hands). And 'proper' Rays are string-through so makes no odds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Now I did not say that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 [quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1342112775' post='1729846'] imo high mass bridges are a marketing ploy.. just like string through bodies etc. [/quote] Yes and no really. I think in terms of tone only if there is a difference with string-through its going to be subtle nd lost next to a drum kit anyway. Engineering wise though, its much better as there's no shear force on the bridge from string tension, just compression from the strings over the bridge. The mounting screws just maintain the correct location of the bridge. The force on the body is also in compression, with which wood is also perfectly happy. Look at a Gibson EBO bridge, with the two screws adjusting up and down and doing their best to avoid the moment cause by string tension trying to drag them out their sockets. Often the bridge can be seen to tip towards the neck under the force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick's Fine '52 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1342113622' post='1729874'] Haha, how come you met him!? (and what a lovely Sadowsky, thats how a Fender should be ) [/quote] Funny, he said the Sadowsky was a good Fender copy, but it wasn't a Fender, probably why he has the Sadowsky up for sale, and bought a Fender off me! He took my '55 Relic, although he nearly had to cut my arms off before I'd let go of it! Lovely guy, we also work in similar circles, and have many common acquaintances , small world! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Not his white Jazz with the blocks? Really nice bloke is Neil, I presume he told you about our secret little geek meets then? You have let the cat out of the bag now that not only do I have some (very few) real friends I also know some with very nice basses and my judgements are mostly made on playing the actual things rather than reading what other people have said about them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 It was actually a string through I was playing when the bridge saddle collapsed, the trouble with the thin plate saddle is that it only has a few turns of the saddle height adjusting pin in contact with it to spread the pressure, this makes stripped threads more common than something like a billet cut chunk of steel that has dozens of screw thread turns in contact all the way through, if that makes sense? A new saddle or rethread the stripped one up to the next size pin is an easy fix, not so easy during a gig though is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick's Fine '52 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1342114847' post='1729911'] Not his white Jazz with the blocks? Really nice bloke is Neil, I presume he told you about our secret little geek meets then? You have let the cat out of the bag now that not only do I have some (very few) real friends I also know some with very nice basses and my judgements are mostly made on playing the actual things rather than reading what other people have said about them! [/quote] Actually he did mention the geek meets! . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 [quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1342112775' post='1729846'] imo high mass bridges are a marketing ploy.. just like string through bodies etc. [/quote] LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick's Fine '52 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1342115142' post='1729921'] It was actually a string through I was playing when the bridge saddle collapsed, the trouble with the thin plate saddle is that it only has a few turns of the saddle height adjusting pin in contact with it to spread the pressure, this makes stripped threads more common than something like a billet cut chunk of steel that has dozens of screw thread turns in contact all the way through, if that makes sense? A new saddle or rethread the stripped one up to the next size pin is an easy fix, not so easy during a gig though is it? [/quote] Never heard of that before. Threaded saddle is solid steel, it has two screws holding to a plate, about 4mm in height from the solid saddle, with an long intonation screw passing through the middle of those, I don't really see how it can move, all mine are solid as a rock, and that's from a real '58, to an '82. I have 6 basses with 4 saddle BBOT's, and they are all the same, solid, just can't see where it would move, or how it could break. never heard of it until now. Maybe a cheap repro bridge from China made from monkey metal for £3 including shipping, but not a real one, surely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 It was a 70's P bass I think, Tele style one? Just knackered threads, probably first stripped when being adjusted under tension after the first one went the second would of been taking all the strain in reality. I have just text Neil, he will be surprsied that I know already Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I must admit I'm getting the equally as bad Guitar saddles confused with the bass saddles concerning the thinness but stripped threads it was all the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lfalex v1.1 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1342113625' post='1729875'] Everything on a Stingray is better than a Fender (except the bassist when its in my hands). And 'proper' Rays are string-through so makes no odds. [/quote] Except for the "weak" G-string and some with evil dead-spots, that is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) Well, Badass invented the aftermarket bridge, err, market, so it had a vested interest in convincing the public of the benefits of high mass. Can't say I've ever noticed an aftermarket bridge making any significant improvement to sound. Edited July 12, 2012 by noelk27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggy Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Never had a problem with the BBOT unit myself, and on a vintage Fender anything else looks plain wrong! Ralphe Armstrong is fairly scathing about them here mind; http://www.flyguitars.com/interviews/ralpheArmstrong.php (about 2/3 way down) I've had a couple of basses with Badass's factory-fitted (BC Rich, Martin), but to mind the best "Fender upgrade" bridge ever is....the Schaller 3D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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