Stealing

[flyfisher]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1340186319' post='1700507']
Tru dat re the inevitability, but whether it can be seen as 'progress' is not so clear.
[/quote]

Well, it's progress in the sense of going forward, but I take your point that different people will have different views on whether it's a good or bad thing.

But I dare say there were plenty of people who thought the invention of the wheel was a change for the worse.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340186644' post='1700513']
That was my point. You've infringed on someone's commercial rights (which is illegal) but nothing has been "stolen". I was merely pointing out that describing copyright infringement as "theft" was factually wrong. Ethically and morally wrong? Probably, yes. Stealing? No.
[/quote]

So what we are essentially arguing about is the exact legal meaning of a couple of words.

The way I see it, if you download a song and the artist who recorded it wants you to pay for the privilege and you don't then you are depriving the artist of money. Somewhere along to line you have broken some law.

Can we agree on that?

[xilddx]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1340186180' post='1700504']

What's the practical difference between having immediate, on-demand access to 1000 music files stored at home on a hard drive or having immediate, on-demand access to 1,000,000 music files stored on a hard drive in the server room of companies like Spotify or YouTube?

[/quote]

Convenience. Accessibility. Portability.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340187061' post='1700523']
So what we are essentially arguing about is the exact legal meaning of a couple of words.

The way I see it, if you download a song and the artist who recorded it wants you to pay for the privilege and you don't then you are depriving the artist of money. Somewhere along to line you have broken some law.

Can we agree on that?
[/quote]

Yes, we totally agree.

My original point way back in the mists of time was that describing copyright infringement as stealing was a silly thing to do. Copyright infringement is a crime, but it is not stealing. I was just being pedantic

[discreet]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1340186973' post='1700521']
I dare say there were plenty of people who thought the invention of the wheel was a change for the worse. [/quote]

Yeah, I'm one of 'em! Disastrous.

[Dave Vader]

If the radio stations and record companies did not incessantly play songs for months BEFORE you can get them legally, i have a sneaking suspicion that less spotty teenagers would be illegally downloading them so the can have then on demand whenever they want.
The current chart model of going in at the top and going down is ridiculous, don't play the bloody song on the radio until it is available to buy, then a lot less people will want to steal it.

Also, iTunes would be a lot better if you could use it with something that ISN'T an iPod. Not seen a real alternative for use with the old generic mp3/ogg player.
Plus back catalogues and stuff by dead people might be a decent loss leader, maybe not free, but certainly uber-cheap would be nice. (I'm looking at you Zappa family )

[Twigman]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340186777' post='1700515']
And BTW do you know what proportion of your free publicity comes from legitimate sources and what comes form those not so legal?
[/quote]
Very little comes from legitimate sources.
Only 3 videos on youtube have been sanctioned by the band -i just did a search which came back with 512 results.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sad+lovers+and+giants&oq=sad+lovers+and+giants&aq=0&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_l=youtube.1.0.0l10.216.3845.0.5184.21.8.0.13.13.0.119.499.7j1.8.0...0.0.IC7CyKbSC5c
The only legitimate sources we have afaik is iTunes (which is not free) and Amazon (which is not free) and what little is available on Spotify.
We also have 1 track on Reverbnation.
Everything else is technically illegal.


Even with new bands then I still view the illegal networks as excellent marketing.
Getting air time on legitimate radio can be an expensive exercise.
Traditional marketing is just no longer cost effective.
Exploiting the interweb is the way to get heard be it through legal or illegal distribution.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Twigman

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340187324' post='1700537']
You only have to look at the forum software changeover how people around here don't like change
[/quote]

Bring back version 1 I say. I've pretty much given up on the idea of everyone actually paying for my music who wants to listen to it. As far as I'm concerned, if I ever get around to making a website and sh*t I'm going to give people the option to donate if they like our songs. The fact is the tide has turned and no matter how much these corporate dinosaurs try, they are not going to get back to the heyday of making everyone have to pay for an LP to listen to it (not that you couldn't copy LPs of course; in the soviet union they used to make bootleg western music LPs out of old x-rays!) IMO the biggest thefts are on the part of the record companies who take 90% and expenses on top from bands.

Edited June 20, 2012 by EdwardHimself

[xilddx]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340187206' post='1700530']
Yes, we totally agree.

My original point way back in the mists of time was that describing copyright infringement as stealing was a silly thing to do. Copyright infringement is a crime, but it is not stealing. I was just being pedantic
[/quote]
Blimey. What's all this 9 pages about then?

Yes, it is not theft, stealing, nicking, half inching. It is COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1340187545' post='1700542']
Blimey. What's all this 9 pages about then? [/quote]

f*** knows

[quote]Yes, it is not theft, stealing, nicking, half inching. It is COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT.
[/quote]

Why didn't you say so the first time then? Then we could have got onto discussing fun stuff like what colour socks you should wear for a deep Reggae tone! Speaking of which, I'm off to give some Dr Alimantado a blast. Laters

[discreet]

This has all been very fascinating, but if I don't drop the kids off at the pool in the next ten seconds, my grundies are going to be in a right old two-and-eight. Later!

[Truckstop]

Hmmm, my spidey-sense says that I'm not really 100% down with illegally downloading stuff but in the past it has been useful. Especially when I was 15 and couldnt go out and buy porn.

I buy all my music these days off iTunes so I pay money which I'm happy to do of course. If I dont like the band, then so what I've lost £0.79. Cheaper than going to see the band and decide I dont like them!

Truckstop

[BottomE]

If i was popular enough to have stuff stolen/downloaded/pirated i wouldn't care.

[Wil]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1340188116' post='1700554']
If i was popular enough to have stuff stolen/downloaded/pirated i wouldn't care.
[/quote]

Me too. I'd just be chuffed people were enjoying my music tbh.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1340188116' post='1700554']
If i was popular enough to have stuff stolen/downloaded/pirated i wouldn't care.
[/quote]

Speak for yourself- I've had my song downloaded 4 times off soundcloud

[xilddx]

[quote name='Wil' timestamp='1340188413' post='1700557']
Me too. I'd just be chuffed people were enjoying my music tbh.
[/quote]

But to sustain a career in music is not then easily possible is it. To make the best music you can make and really represent yourself at your best, you need to dedicate a lot of time to it, practising, writing, refining, learning, touring, promotion .. giving yourself the best chance at a sustainable career. You can't do all this and have a day job to pay the rent and eat and fund the next musical project.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1340188969' post='1700567']
But to sustain a career in music is not then easily possible is it. To make the best music you can make and really represent yourself at your best, you need to dedicate a lot of time to it, practising, writing, refining, learning, touring, promotion .. giving yourself the best chance at a sustainable career. You can't do all this and have a day job to pay the rent and eat and fund the next musical project.
[/quote]

You certainly can't. I would like to think if people listened to your music enough, they would pay good money to see you at a show, buy your merch, hell maybe even buy the odd CD or 2 Don't forget you also get paid for youtube views if you get a certain number as well.

Edited June 20, 2012 by EdwardHimself

[Twigman]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1340188969' post='1700567']
But to sustain a career in music is not then easily possible is it. To make the best music you can make and really represent yourself at your best, you need to dedicate a lot of time to it, practising, writing, refining, learning, touring, promotion .. giving yourself the best chance at a sustainable career. You can't do all this and have a day job to pay the rent and eat and fund the next musical project.
[/quote]
We all have day jobs.
We probably break even these days.
Recording is far far far cheaper now than it was.
Back in the 80s you'd be lucky to get change from £20k when recording an album.
These days you can record an album for a fraction of that cost.

[Wil]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1340188969' post='1700567']
But to sustain a career in music is not then easily possible is it. To make the best music you can make and really represent yourself at your best, you need to dedicate a lot of time to it, practising, writing, refining, learning, touring, promotion .. giving yourself the best chance at a sustainable career. You can't do all this and have a day job to pay the rent and eat and fund the next musical project.
[/quote]

That's exactly what I do, I work a day job to pay for my hobby making music. If I could make a living out of selling music, I'd probably be happy about that, but this is the 21st century and I think it's unrealistic to think that people wont share music digitally in the same way people did with cassette tapes, or further back, did around camp fires. To me music is a form of human expression first and foremost, not a commodity, it's ethereal. Once it leaves the speakers it enters your brain and it's yours forever.

Honestly, I would rather someone heard my music for free and enjoyed it, instead of not hearing it at all because they're not able to/prepared to pay for it.

But that's just me.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Wil' timestamp='1340189818' post='1700590']
That's exactly what I do, I work a day job to pay for my hobby making music. If I could make a living out of selling music, I'd probably be happy about that, but this is the 21st century and I think it's unrealistic to think that people wont share music digitally in the same way people did with cassette tapes, or further back, did around camp fires. To me music is a form of human expression first and foremost, not a commodity, it's ethereal. Once it leaves the speakers it enters your brain and it's yours forever.

Honestly, I would rather someone heard my music for free and enjoyed it, instead of not hearing it at all because they're not able to/prepared to pay for it.

But that's just me.
[/quote]

I think you are missing my point. The music you are happy to give away is underdeveloped hobby music. If you are happy slowly developing as your limited free time time allows, doing a few unpaid gigs, and giving your hobby music away, then good for you, I'm happy for you.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340189167' post='1700573']
Where does an artist make the majority of their money?
[/quote]

I would suggest that the answer is that it [i]varies[/i].

There's no question of where some of the larger, talent-show, acts make their money - but that's only one model. it will vary by band, as all the other factors - popularity, etc, vary also.

We shouldn't be unaware of the consequences of our decision, in large numbers, to download for free will have upon those artists reliant on income from the physical distribution of their media.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340189167' post='1700573']
Where does an artist make the majority of their money?

Album sales or gig and merch revenue?
[/quote]
Vastly inflated ticket and merch prices to compensate for loss of revenue due to file sharing.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Wil' timestamp='1340189818' post='1700590']
That's exactly what I do, I work a day job to pay for my hobby making music. If I could make a living out of selling music, I'd probably be happy about that, but this is the 21st century and I think it's unrealistic to think that people wont share music digitally in the same way people did with cassette tapes, or further back, did around camp fires. To me music is a form of human expression first and foremost, not a commodity, it's ethereal. Once it leaves the speakers it enters your brain and it's yours forever.

Honestly, I would rather someone heard my music for free and enjoyed it, instead of not hearing it at all because they're not able to/prepared to pay for it.

But that's just me.
[/quote]

"Sharing" music digitally is not the same as making a cassette tape. Cassettes were never as good as the records they were copied off, and TBH a real pain to do as they had to be done in real time and there was always the possibility that the record might skip or the levels go into distortion while you were making it. Make a digital copy, it's a couple of clicks and you can be using you PC to do something else while it uploads or burns to CD.

It's fine if you are happy with just doing your music as a hobby and you don't want to get paid for it. That's your choice. But please don't make it any harder for those of us who would like a chance to make a living out of writing, recording and playing, by taking for free the work that we would like to be paid for.

There are plenty of places in the internet where you can hear artists music for free (without needing to download) and they will still get paid (a small amount) if they have chosen that option. So by all means have a listen to the music, but don't take a "permanent" copy for free just because it's more convenient to you, if that's against the wished of the artist(s) in question.

And BTW if you'd read the whole of the original article in the OP you'd have seen that while getting the actual music files themselves doesn't actually cost you any money, in order for you to have access to those files, you've paid for a computer/phone and your internet connection/data plan, so as the author says, by doing this you are actually supporting "The Man" and sticking it to the small artists.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1340190562' post='1700610']
The music you are happy to give away is [b]underdeveloped[/b] hobby music.
[/quote]

a rather patronizing assumption, don't you think?

For example, there's a guy who works in my office who sings in a choir in his spare time. They do a fair few international concerts at top venues, and have had their performances at the Royal Festival Hall broadcast on Radio 3. By your definition, that would be "underdeveloped hobby music", I presume, yet the quality of musicianship far exceeds the majority of commercial pop acts.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Earbrass

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340191453' post='1700624']
And BTW if you'd read the whole of the original article in the OP you'd have seen that while getting the actual music files themselves doesn't actually cost you any money, in order for you to have access to those files, you've paid for a computer/phone and your internet connection/data plan, so as the author says, by doing this you are actually supporting "The Man" and sticking it to the small artists.
[/quote]

You mean by paying for the internet that we would use anyway? I mean, you're clearly using the internet right now to write on this forum, so on that basis, you are propping up "the man" just as much as any of us lot.


[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340191759' post='1700637']
No offense Nigel but that makes you sound like a pretentious twat.
[/quote]

Nigel? Surely not!

Edited June 20, 2012 by EdwardHimself