Bad bassist??

[4000]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331490127' post='1573667']
I didn't think we were talking about the drummer's ability to keep time. I thought we were discussing the role of the drums in a band setting and that they don't have to be there to 'keep time' or 'drive the band'.
[/quote]

Also agree with Nige on this. Just because there are traditionally accepted (for want of a better term) roles for instruments that doesn't mean that's all there is. People seem to forget that you can do anything at all with any instrument within the confines of the sounds it (or you) are able to produce. Anything. Just because you choose to define yourself within certain boundaries doesn't mean everyone has to.

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1331491067' post='1573689']
pet hate.. flowery drummers...!!

This is '1' and there are no guesses..!! it is where it is because that is where it was determined at the beginning of the track.
And I don't want the drummer bending to where he thinks everyone might be leaning, his job is to keep that track online with pulse and tempo and then you stand a chance of that groove that everyone says they want. If there is any letup from that..the groove has gone.. and you just have a rhythmic section.

So back to the OP...or the point that took us to this about the guy without a kick, just play with a constant heathbeat and it will be a start. I am not sure how drums get away with not using kick drunms for very long tho...??????
[/quote]

Mate, you are advising someone with little confidence to do something which may give them even less confidence. You know as little about his problem as we do, and yet you prescribe him with 'constant heartbeat' and go on to deride his drummer's use of the kick.

When someone here who may be inexperienced asks for help, I believe we need to consider the level of influence they may take from what we say, get them to examine the root cause of their problems - not just give them a new set of problems, and act with a sense of responsibility to them in mind.

[icastle]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331477944' post='1573353']
I sometimes find that the thing to lock onto is not even audible, it's the FEELING of pace and rhythm that the ensemble generates. When all the musicians feel it, it's the sound of unity. Nothing and everything is creating the pace and rhythm. It just flows. It's like leaves falling off trees and landing on the ground at the same time. Lovely when it happens.
[/quote]

Absolutely, but I kinda thought that advising someone to lock onto a 'nothing' rather than looking for a 'something', which is a comparative tangible, might be making things a tad more complex than was necessary.

...and having read that back I'm still not sure that statement is even understandable unless you already know what I'm trying to convey...

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331477944' post='1573353']
However an inexperienced musician probably needs something audible to lock onto. Gawd knows why so many bassists seem to think it's the kick drum though. It's really so far off beam, and I think it really shows how limited these bassists believe their compositional role is.
[/quote]

Ah.
That'd be due to the genres of music that they've become accustomed to listening to perhaps?

[xilddx]

I have had one bass lesson in my life, it was with Jake Newman. I only needed that single lesson. Jake made one remark that stunned me, completely floored me, and that one remark was the essence of what it meant for me to realise my musicianship. And that the most important thing you can do, before all else, is to open your ears, absorb EVERYTHING you can, and turn it into music that reflects YOU. Develop your aesthetic in other words, develop your inner VOICE, then learn how to externalise your voice in such a way that they become one and the same.

The object lesson of this is to then develop the musical and technical skills you need to reflect your inner voice with as much accuracy as possible.

This is what I wrote on Jake's Bass Tutors thread later ..

[i]"Never having had a bass lesson ever, I had my first lesson with Jake Newman (Jakesbass on 'ere) a few hours ago. All I can say is my mind has been opened like a bloody flower! I'm no newbie to this bass biznis but blimey, has Jake taken me apart. I feel like a musician all of a sudden but with so much personal expression to learn. We talked a lot of the time and this was a massively important part of the session.[/i]

[i]My most enormous f***ing lesson for tonight was: [b]Sing what you hear in your head, then play it on the bass. Jake was singing me what he heard in his head, then playing it on the bass milliseconds later. I, being the competitive sort, had a bash at the same thing, Jake told me I was singing what I was playing, not playing what I was singing. He was absolutely right. I really thought I was playing what I was singing, but I truly wasn't and I instinctively knew that. A very humbling and exciting experience.[/b] It taught me a lot about myself and a helluva lot about why I didn't feel I was expressing myself musically. I am restricted by my technique, my repetitive patterns and my lack of/mis understanding of basic theory. I have some homework and I am raring to go! I can't believe how beneficial one lesson from a real musician (one making a living at it, one who has played with such notable musicians, and who is so accomplished at personal expression through a piece of wood with strings on it.) could be."[/i]

I never followed the exercises Jake gave me other than a few cursory attempts. The lesson made me realise that I have a quite well developed musical aesthetic and that what I need to do is learn how to play the music in my head. It feeds off itself and I really do feel I am developing a style and approach unique to me. If I can't play what I hear in my head, then I damn well learn how to very quickly, because then I can express myself. I can't play Jazz, or Country, or Rock n Roll, or Funk, or Afrobeat, or Reggae, or ... What I can do, most of the time, is play ME. And thankfully, the bands I'm in appreciate and like what I do because, I believe, I have an aesthetic that includes the practical and emotional needs of myself, the other musicians, and the SONG.

Sorry for the self-aggrandizing rambling post.

[peteb]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331495766' post='1573810']
I have had one bass lesson in my life, it was with Jake Newman. I only needed that single lesson. Jake made one remark that stunned me, completely floored me, and that one remark was the essence of what it meant for me to realise my musicianship. And that the most important thing you can do, before all else, is to open your ears, absorb EVERYTHING you can, and turn it into music that reflects YOU. Develop your aesthetic in other words, develop your inner VOICE, then learn how to externalise your voice in such a way that they become one and the same.

The object lesson of this is to then develop the musical and technical skills you need to reflect your inner voice with as much accuracy as possible.

This is what I wrote on Jake's Bass Tutors thread later ..

[i]"Never having had a bass lesson ever, I had my first lesson with Jake Newman (Jakesbass on 'ere) a few hours ago. All I can say is my mind has been opened like a bloody flower! I'm no newbie to this bass biznis but blimey, has Jake taken me apart. I feel like a musician all of a sudden but with so much personal expression to learn. We talked a lot of the time and this was a massively important part of the session.[/i]

[i]My most enormous f***ing lesson for tonight was: [b]Sing what you hear in your head, then play it on the bass. Jake was singing me what he heard in his head, then playing it on the bass milliseconds later. I, being the competitive sort, had a bash at the same thing, Jake told me I was singing what I was playing, not playing what I was singing. He was absolutely right. I really thought I was playing what I was singing, but I truly wasn't and I instinctively knew that. A very humbling and exciting experience.[/b] It taught me a lot about myself and a helluva lot about why I didn't feel I was expressing myself musically. I am restricted by my technique, my repetitive patterns and my lack of/mis understanding of basic theory. I have some homework and I am raring to go! I can't believe how beneficial one lesson from a real musician (one making a living at it, one who has played with such notable musicians, and who is so accomplished at personal expression through a piece of wood with strings on it.) could be."[/i]

I never followed the exercises Jake gave me other than a few cursory attempts. The lesson made me realise that I have a quite well developed musical aesthetic and that what I need to do is learn how to play the music in my head. It feeds off itself and I really do feel I am developing a style and approach unique to me. If I can't play what I hear in my head, then I damn well learn how to very quickly, because then I can express myself. I can't play Jazz, or Country, or Rock n Roll, or Funk, or Afrobeat, or Reggae, or ... What I can do, most of the time, is play ME. And thankfully, the bands I'm in appreciate and like what I do because, I believe, I have an aesthetic that includes the practical and emotional needs of myself, the other musicians, and the SONG.

Sorry for the self-aggrandizing rambling post.
[/quote]
With respect, a lot of what you are saying is a bit 'Zen and the Art of Bass Playing' - what Jake said to you is great advice to someone who has been playing for years and with hundreds of gigs under their belt! The OP, who I assume is more of a novice, really needs to learn the bassics of how to play with a drummer to get some confidence knowing that they can really cut it in a band!

I can't possibly disagree with "[i]Sing what you hear in your head, then play it on the bass",[/i] but first of all you need to know how to play a groove!

Edited March 11, 2012 by peteb

[xilddx]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1331496379' post='1573823']
FFS Nige next you'll be saying we don't have to play in 4/4
[/quote]

[xilddx]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1331496571' post='1573828']
With respect, a lot of what you are saying is a bit 'Zen and the Art of Bass Playing' - what Jake said to you is great advice to someone who has been playing for years and with hundreds of gigs under their belt! The OP, who I assume is more of a novice, really needs to learn the bassics of how to play with a drummer to get some confidence knowing that they can really cut it in a band!

I can't possibly disagree with "[i]Sing what you hear in your head, then play it on the bass",[/i] but first of all you need how to play a groove!
[/quote]

I agree my thoughts are more aligned to a player who has some experience.

[skankdelvar]

This is all very nice, I suppose, this guff about 'space' and 'practicing' and 'sitting on the bass drum' (as if a drummer would let you sit on his bass drum ).

The reality is that success comes to the bass player who observes the following golden rules:

* Wave to the audience at regular intervals

* Wear a sparkly bass. (4-string, 5-string fretless? - what are you - some sort of geek loser?)

* Get your teeth fixed and keep your weight down. No-one hires flabby bass players - just ask Jon Bon Jovi.

Everything else is complete tosh. No need to thank me.

[color=#ffffff].[/color]

Edited March 11, 2012 by skankdelvar

[xilddx]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1331498254' post='1573855']
This is all very nice, I suppose, this guff about 'space' and 'practicing' and 'sitting on the bass drum' (as if a drummer would let you sit on his bass drum ).

The reality is that success comes to the bass player who observes the following golden rules:

* Wave to the audience at regular intervals

* [b]Wear a sparkly bass.[/b] (4-string, 5-string fretless? - what are you - some sort of geek loser?)

* Get your teeth fixed and keep your weight down. No-one hires flabby bass players - just ask Jon Bon Jovi.

Everything else is complete tosh. No need to thank me.

[color=#ffffff].[/color]
[/quote]

Which is why I would advocate everyone gets a chrome bass. My bass lines are far more reflective of my personality now.

[Toddy]

FFS,,, everyone who plays in a pro band nowadays knows its the click line going to the drum stool that sets the pace !!!

only saying like lol......ha,,,, its a laff init..

[xilddx]

[quote name='Toddy' timestamp='1331501659' post='1573918']
FFS,,, everyone who plays in a pro band nowadays knows its the click line going to the drum stool that sets the pace !!!

only saying like lol......ha,,,, its a laff init..
[/quote]

[BigRedX]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1331496571' post='1573828']
With respect, a lot of what you are saying is a bit 'Zen and the Art of Bass Playing' - what Jake said to you is great advice to someone who has been playing for years and with hundreds of gigs under their belt! The OP, who I assume is more of a novice, really needs to learn the bassics of how to play with a drummer to get some confidence knowing that they can really cut it in a band!

I can't possibly disagree with "[i]Sing what you hear in your head, then play it on the bass",[/i] but first of all you need how to play a groove!
[/quote]

This is what I've always done from the moment I dispensed with my Beatles Complete chord book and started writing my own songs. For me it's the most natural thing in the world to sing what you hear in your head and then play it, but reading some of the posts here maybe its not...

[risingson]

I've skim-read a lot of what has been written by other people, I didn't read it all as there was a lot of it so I apologise if I'm repeating a few things!

To the OP. If you lack confidence in yourself, you'd be wise to get yourself into a band. When I started playing, it was all about having fun for me, and playing in a band is a lot of fun. It's a big confidence booster too. You'll soon find that music is all about communication with other people through what you play. Even if its the simplest of bass lines, there is something immensely satisfying in knowing that you're propping up the rest of your band with your rock solid and very simplistic bass part. I can't stress enough how enjoyable the whole experience of being in a band is, and if you're passionate about music it's definitely one way to snap you into shape as a bass player.

The other big deal is to get inspired by someone. For me, there was a local bass player that used to make my jaw drop when I watched him play some stuff that at the time was seemingly impossible. You'll always feel pressured and unhappy if you measure your skill against seasoned bass players, but when you watch your bassist, go and grab your bass and pay a lot of attention to what makes that bass player so great to watch. Then try and extract it and take influence from him/her. Lessons with great teachers can inspire you too.

We all have our ups and downs as musicians but as long as you're not putting undue pressure on yourself to be living up to other people's expectations, then music should be about having fun first and foremost. Everyone's very capable of this part of playing the bass guitar, regardless of experience.

[WalMan]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1331492792' post='1573734']
Saw it on youtube
[/quote]BU993R! I must remember to stop posting those!!

[discreet]

Bass quite often does work closely with the kick. They share a frequency. Bass can be the bridge between the drums and the melodic instruments and vocals. Listen to Sly and Robbie... Aston and Carlton Barrett... Bernard Edwards and Tony Thompson... Tony Allen and Maurice Ekpo... Chris Frantz and Tina Weymouth... Holger Czukay and Jaki Leibezeit... John Paul Jones and John Bonham... Chris Squire and Alan White... Paul Chambers and Jimmy Cobb... Jimmy Garrison and Elvin Jones... Nick Mason and Roger Waters... need I go on?

Throughout every genre, it's the interplay between the kick drum and the bass that has provided the fundamental basis for quite a lot of twentieth (and twenty-first) century music... IMHO! YMMV! And so on and so forth.

If youre playing 'groovy' music and the kick and the bass aren't working together properly, then you don't have a groove. That is all!

Edited to remove drunken ranting.

Edited March 12, 2012 by discreet

[icastle]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1331512589' post='1574114']
If the kick and the bass aren't working together properly, then you don't have a groove. That is all.
[/quote]

Or in my case, you don't always have a drummer.

[discreet]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1331513214' post='1574119']
Or in my case, you don't always have a drummer.
[/quote]

DON'T f*** WITH ME, I'M VERY PISSED!

[risingson]

Better than arguing over it, can it just be accepted by everyone that the bass/kick thing is entirely dependent on the style of music that you play. Not referring to any one person in particular but its hardly helpful to be barraging the OP with what is a fair bit of misinformation and assumptions.

[Doddy]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1331512589' post='1574114']
Throughout every genre, it's the interplay between the kick drum and the bass that has provided the fundamental basis of twentieth (and twenty-first) century music. If you think otherwise, then I'm sorry... you're deluded and you know f***-all.

If the kick and the bass aren't working together properly, then you don't have a groove. That is all.
[/quote]



A very bold and aggressive statement there...although in a round about way you're agreeing with me.
You mention 'the interplay between the kick drum and the bass'...the key word being 'interplay'.

The argument was against the quote "[b]every bass drum beat should be covered by a note played by the bass"-[/b]
no,it doesn't. There are times when this works,but the bass doesn't have to shadow the bass drum all the time.
It is free to play off and around the bass drum and lock in just as much with other parts of the kit and other instruments.

But,what do I know? f*** all apparently.

[discreet]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1331513746' post='1574127']
The argument was against the quote "[b]every bass drum beat should be covered by a note played by the bass"- [/b]no,it doesn't.
[/quote]

Not [i]every[/i] kick beat should be covered by a bass note. I've never said this. We agree that the key word is 'interplay'. Listen to any of the bass/drum combos I mentioned in my previous post...

Edited March 12, 2012 by discreet

[icastle]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1331513406' post='1574122']
DON'T f*** WITH ME, I'M VERY PISSED!
[/quote]

I play in three bands - only one of those bands involves drums.

[discreet]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1331514453' post='1574133']
I play in three bands - only one of those bands involves drums.
[/quote]

Holy crap, you don't mean you're into... [i]folk[/i] music, do you??

[discreet]

Well I'm flagging now.
I'll come back later and see if this old balls is still going on. Morning! *slumps over keyboard, drooling*

Edited March 12, 2012 by discreet

[icastle]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1331514616' post='1574135']
Holy crap, you don't mean you're into... [i]folk[/i] music, do you??
[/quote]

Well I don't look good in torn t-shirts and studded leather trousers...

The serious point I was trying to make is that rhythm doesn't always need to be tied to particular drums - especially if there aren't any in the first place!

In the absence of drums you have to latch onto 'something else' (that may or may not 'be there') and either play with it or against it.

It's surprisingly difficult to try and quantify 'rhythm' in this medium - I can 'hear' what I mean in my head but am not too sure it translates well into written words...

[littlegreenman]

I'd class myself as a beginner, regarding technique and ability. Only really started playing Bass seriously about a month ago, coming from a background of 25 years guitaring, and some choir stuff as a youngster. So I would like to think I have a good ear, and a reasonable musical education. Have to say I've found this thread to be quite useful, and entertaining.

I'm currently focusing on very basic grooves, with and without drums. Seems to be a good place to start. Stuff that's totally locked in with the kick on 1, and stuff where my only playing is off beat fills. Whatever works, works. Good to see the "rest" being recognised as a beat in itself. Some of my favourite tunes have me bobbing my head most on a silence!

To the OP, I've always felt that we're never as good as we want to be, but almost always better than we think we are. Goes with the artistic territory apparently. Unless you're a *insert profanity here, not sure on the swearing etiquette here*

oh, and @ silddx. Really liked that track you posted Nigel, not my taste as such, but very good