just curious

[OliverBlackman]

What do you guys see as being the difference in skill and knowledge between amateur musicians and professionals?

As a student of music i hope to be a professional as do all the people at my college. But sometimes you see video's of players that are just bedroom players or play in a pub at the weekend and some of them have amazing technique in slapping, tapping and so on.

So i was thinking whats stopping these guys becoming pro's?

[lowdown]

[quote name='blackmn90' post='1283027' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:12 PM']So i was thinking whats stopping these guys becoming pro's?[/quote]


TAB




Garry

[risingson]

[quote name='blackmn90' post='1283027' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:12 PM']What do you guys see as being the difference in skill and knowledge between amateur musicians and professionals?[/quote]

Experience. That's the key IMO. Those people you see in the videos are great, MarloweDK has chops to kill for but unless those kinds of people can play in a band then their skills are redundant in a professional environment.

A great blueprint for success is Pino Palladino. He's been playing non-stop for over 30 years and he's constantly still in demand because he has the experience and skill of his craft down to a tee. The guy doesn't even read that well as far as I know.

[Lozz196]

In my view, primarily it is attitude, and willingness to play what is right for the song, instead of what is perceived to make the individual sound good.

I`ve seen many people, and worked with quite a few, whose opinion was that "their sound" or "their line" was right, and you can see everyone else in the band wincing when it is heard. That to me is what prevents some from going further, only playing for themselves.

Some on here often seem to have a go at Adam Clayton of U2, but one of those slapper-widdlers mentioned would completely ruin U2s sound, whereas AC is happy to play what the songs require of him. And gets paid a fortune - hence being professional.

[skidder652003]

A mate of mine, Murray Gould, who plays session for the wanted and sugar babes told me he finds the music itself a piece of piss, but the real struggle is to concentrate and NOT MAKE A SINGLE MISTAKE when in concert, on TV etc. Amateur musos like me who play in a pub band make loads of mistakes every gig! Is that one of the differences? Maybe...

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='blackmn90' post='1283027' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:12 PM']What do you guys see as being the difference in skill and knowledge between amateur musicians and professionals?[/quote]
There may not be any difference. Some amateurs are fantastic players. Some professionals (i.e. people who get paid to do it) are widely denigrated - Mr A Clayton of the popular combo U2, as mentioned above. IMO, there is no absolute musical skill or knowledge correlation to be drawn based on the players source of income. 'Professional' is not a synonym for 'accomplished'.

[quote name='blackmn90' post='1283027' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:12 PM']As a student of music i hope to be a professional as do all the people at my college. But sometimes you see video's of players that are just bedroom players or play in a pub at the weekend and some of them have amazing technique in slapping, tapping and so on.[/quote]
The ability to slap and tap to athletic standards is not necessarily the calling card of today's professional. The professional supplies services to the specification of the customer. I'd imagine there aren't that many customers for slap and tap at the moment.

[quote name='blackmn90' post='1283027' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:12 PM']So i was thinking whats stopping these guys becoming pro's?[/quote]
Better paid day jobs? Established family life? No desire to turn a lovely hobby into a horrible job? One's circumstances dictate an outcome far more often than do one's abilities or desires. I'd be an astronaut, else.

Edited June 26, 2011 by skankdelvar

[Len_derby]

There's going to be lots on this one I think.

My 2pees worth is that similar to most 'jobs', a pro musician has to be;
able to get on with other people (almost 24-7 if on tour),
reliable,
punctual,
healthy,
motivated,
etc.

Also, and not least, being able to put up with the 'befores' and 'afters' of performing.
People sometimes seem impressed if I tell them what I get as my share of the band's fee (when they ask).
Then I explain that I was actually out the house for six hours, not just the 1 hour I played!

[Doddy]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='1283034' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:20 PM']Some on here often seem to have a go at Adam Clayton of U2, but one of those slapper-widdlers mentioned would completely ruin U2s sound, whereas AC is happy to play what the songs require of him. And gets paid a fortune - hence being professional.[/quote]

This,for me,is where it becomes a grey area. While a player like Adam Clayton is a professional,he's not in the same league as
player like Trevor Barry,Steve Pearce and Paul Westwood. If U2 hadn't been successful he probably wouldn't have been able to
sustain a career as a musician.
As far as I'm concerned,there is a huge difference between the professional 'band' musicians and professional 'working' musicians.

[Jazzneck]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='1283034' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:20 PM']In my view, primarily it is attitude, and willingness to play what is right for the song, instead of what is perceived to make the individual sound good.

I`ve seen many people, and worked with quite a few, whose opinion was that "their sound" or "their line" was right, and you can see everyone else in the band wincing when it is heard. That to me is what prevents some from going further, only playing for themselves.

Some on here often seem to have a go at Adam Clayton of U2, but one of those slapper-widdlers mentioned would completely ruin U2s sound, whereas AC is happy to play what the songs require of him. And gets paid a fortune - hence being professional.[/quote]

+1

IMHO playing what the song requires is the most important aspect of all playing followed by experience of playing with other people - LIVE!

I know I will be classified as a miserable reactionary old git, but I have seen so many so called amateur / pub band bass players using a plank with 4 strings, a lead and a decent amp who piddle all over the players who've come up the college trained route with all the gear , who seem to play "flash, look at me stuff" with no conception of what the song and the rest of the band needs / wants.

The bedroom's great for playing with yourself but please get out and play in a live band in front of an audience - 1 gig is worth 5 rehearsals - again IMHO.

M.

[Len_derby]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1283042' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:29 PM']As far as I'm concerned,there is a huge difference between the professional 'band' musicians and professional 'working' musicians.[/quote]

That's interesting. What exactly do you mean?

[AttitudeCastle]

[quote name='risingson' post='1283031' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:17 PM']Experience. That's the key IMO.[/quote]

+100000

Billy Sheehan (even if you don't like him, you have to admit he has chops, and had a number one hit all over the world (exept for here haha!)) learnt everything on the stage and he is (in my eyes, one of ) the best bass player(s) there is!

Flip side of the coin John Myung of Dream Theater famous for having gone to Berklee and studying music, but they band left Berklee after a year and a half as they felt they knew enough in "theory" but needed to put it into practise and that was more important.

You can learn more in an hour playing with a band on a stage than you can in 10 hours of practise home alone (in regards to being a musician, playing the music you play as obviously if you're home reading up on harmonies and theory etc you'll learn more about "music" as a subject!)

Thats all IMHO and IME!

Edit:

And yes i also mean being punctual, respectful, knowing your placing etc and thats the kind of thing you'd learn by doing, as if after 7 years you aren't getting any shows and you've always called the sound man "mr T*ss P*t" at shows you should see the connections

Edited June 26, 2011 by AttitudeCastle

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='blackmn90' post='1283027' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:12 PM']What do you guys see as being the difference in skill and knowledge between amateur musicians and professionals?[/quote]

[u]Nothing at all[/u], Not all of them want to be pro musicians either remember.

Many people started playing 40 years ago because they enjoyed it but now fame and fortune coupled with worldwide recognition have become more important than the playing in so many cases.

Experience in the pop world is one thing but some guys have played 1000's of gigs etc and are more then happy to drive a fork truck on shifts so as they are 100% certain they can fit gigs and jam nights to suit as thats what they love, Good on them I say. Some players live and breathe music and nothing else so what happens if that becomes a chore? I like messing with old cars and all sorts of daft hobbies like many others on here so when the bands become an arse I have a weekend in the garage or something but for total music addicts thats not an option. Also some of those bedroom players and what not are writing the pop songs but because they are not female,16 and large chested no one wants to see them perform but they are still making a living from music.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1283042' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:29 PM']As far as I'm concerned,there is a huge difference between the professional 'band' musicians and professional 'working' musicians.[/quote]
Strange, isn't it, the music business? You couldn't imagine other industries working that way. U2 - it's like 4 mates buying a clapped-out bus and driving randomly round the streets while other companies hire PSV-licensed drivers, do a health and safety case, tender for contracts, etc. And the 4 mates end up biggest of all.

Bonkers.

Edited June 26, 2011 by skankdelvar

[lemmywinks]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1283042' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:29 PM']This,for me,is where it becomes a grey area. While a player like Adam Clayton is a professional,he's not in the same league as
player like Trevor Barry,Steve Pearce and Paul Westwood. If U2 hadn't been successful he probably wouldn't have been able to
sustain a career as a musician.
As far as I'm concerned,there is a huge difference between the professional 'band' musicians and professional 'working' musicians.[/quote]


This is true. I tend to think of professional musicians as session guys, people who get the call time and time again rather that just being in the right place at the right time a la Adam Clayton.

It's actually really easy to flail away playing a fast solo piece for Youtube and sound reasonably impressive, you never have to leave your comfort zone and are likely to have practiced those licks tons of times.
For me the mark of a pro player is someone who can get thrown in at the deep end at any gig and pull it off because of their depth of musical knowledge and their ability to apply it on the fly.

I can play in covers bands and original rock/funk/acoustic bands any day of the week but give me a reading gig with a Jazz band or for a show and i'd be completely lost. That's the difference between pro and amateur, to me anyways.

[lowdown]

Depends on what your idea of 'Pro' means as well.
If you are not in a major band, you would be talking about being a bread butter Musician and sustaining it.
IE - Shows, sessions, tours backing acts, regular depping, freelancing, etc....
Apart from chops you would need ears, reading skills, business skills, discipline, be adaptable, amongst other stuff, [i]and be quick at learnig and picking up stuff.[/i]
The guys you see on them vids might have been rehearsing the stuff for weeks. [not all of course] and might be a one trick pony so limits their shelf life.






Garry

Edited June 26, 2011 by lowdown

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Len_derby' post='1283041' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:27 PM']There's going to be lots on this one I think.

My 2pees worth is that similar to most 'jobs', a pro musician has to be;
able to get on with other people (almost 24-7 if on tour),
reliable,
punctual,
healthy,
motivated,
etc.[/quote]
I wouldn't play in a local pub band though if these point cant be met so they apply to both camps for me.

[quote name='Len_derby' post='1283050' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:33 PM']That's interesting. What exactly do you mean?[/quote]

Im with Doddy and before it gets twisted out of context (which it will ) someone like Christ Novaselic (spelling) from Nirvana is ace at being himself and is one of my favourite players looking back but could he cut it as a working musician? Im not sure, perhaps if he wanted to he could brush up on his reading and root note stuff he could just like any of us, hopefully that makes sense?

Edited June 26, 2011 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1283057' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:40 PM']Strange, isn't it, the music business? You couldn't imagine other industries working that way. U2 - it's like 4 mates buying a clapped-out bus and driving randomly round the streets while other companies hire PSV-licensed drivers, do a health and safety case, tender for contracts, etc. And the 4 mates end up biggest of all.

Bonkers.[/quote]
They do its called sub contracting Skank

[quote name='lemmywinks' post='1283059' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:40 PM']I can play in covers bands and original rock/funk/acoustic bands any day of the week but give me a reading gig with a Jazz band or for a show and i'd be completely lost. That's the difference between pro and amateur, to me anyways.[/quote]
I disagree, They must be non pro's that can read well and cover lots of styles in an improvisional manner? I dont see that as a pro Vs amateur thing at all.

[Pete Academy]

Gigging.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1283083' date='Jun 26 2011, 04:04 PM']Gigging for a living[/quote]
fixed




And thread/

[lemmywinks]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1283067' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:46 PM']I disagree, They must be non pro's that can read well and cover lots of styles in an improvisional manner? I dont see that as a pro Vs amateur thing at all.[/quote]


Of course there are, but those skill aren't necessary for the majority of amateur gigs. They are however a pre-requisite of being a pro musician. It's the sort of dedication you don't commonly see with part time players as their jobs don't depend on it, different story for the session guys where the ability to be flexible and dependable might be the difference between working and not working.

[BassBus]

[quote name='Len_derby' post='1283050' date='Jun 26 2011, 03:33 PM']That's interesting. What exactly do you mean?[/quote]
Prosessional band musicians - Great at what they do. Lucky enough to be in a band that write's the right songs at the right time that the right people want to release as records and continue to write the right songs that the right people want to continue listening to and realeasing as records. Coldplay, Rolling Stones, U2, Great at what they do but not versitile musicians.

Professional working musicians - Those who are versitile enough to be able to give a wide variety of musical colaborators what is required for any particular type of music. Guy Pratt, Pino Palidino, Mo Foster.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='lemmywinks' post='1283102' date='Jun 26 2011, 04:19 PM']Of course there are, but those skill aren't necessary for the majority of amateur gigs. They are however a pre-requisite of being a pro musician. It's the sort of dedication you don't commonly see with part time players as their jobs don't depend on it, different story for the session guys where the ability to be flexible and dependable might be the difference between working and not working.[/quote]

Which highlights Doddy point about working musicians and band musicians as a top notch well known player can still fit into your amateur skill set as long as they work with that band. The crap drummer in the original Oasis lineup made them sound different to all other rock bands at the time IMO but he would of lasted one night in a theater pit and probably not even got asked back to the average pub covers band audition, Funny old world.

[OliverBlackman]

Yh when i mean professional musician i meant the Stuart Pearce, Phil Mulford, Laurence Cottle busy bee types. What made me think is iv seen a few great players at ACM doing master classes and when they explain what they do it seems so simple. Laurence Cottle said for him it was hours of practice and playing lots of different genres when gigging that got him to where he is now. So is it literally just having the motivation to really want to do it that separates people from going and doing it or keeping it as a hobby?

Also i do completely appreciate the not wanting to make your hobby your job thing.

[stingrayPete1977]

We should all remember that the band musicians can also be great rounded players too that can have an extended career in all styles of music but many dont push that when they are in a cool band because its looks nerdy, At the same time there is no reason why a pro session player cant acheive success in a cool indie band.

[Big_Stu]

I think a lot of it is just "the breaks", & the determination while you're young enough, right place at the right time, missing the boat to a big break.
I used to go see a band near Edinburgh called "East West" who apart from having a crap name were fantastic, mostly covers but in their own way. They did THE most amazing version of "Drift Away" I ever heard; singer was Colin, also on rythym guitar who went back to being a sales rep. Guitarist was Brian who was so laid back he was horizontal but was probably the best guitarist I ever saw live. When EW split he went to being a tutor from home & session player.