Sharps and flats...

[Skol303]

This may well be a dumb question (so bear with me!)... but I can't for the life of me find the answer on Google, so I thought I'd rely on your folks here instead.

My question is: when writing music, when do you use the sharp or flat notation to describe the same note? For example: when is C-sharp written as C-sharp and not D-flat?

I appreciate there might not be a simple answer here for my simple mind... but if anyone can help briefly clarify then please do.

Cheers as always.

[markstuk]

The key of the piece tends to determine whether you use sharps or flats, it's common to double flat or double sharp for accidentals..

OF course this opens the debate as to whether A Sharp and B flat are the same note :-)



[quote name='Skol303' post='1247320' date='May 27 2011, 04:47 PM']This may well be a dumb question (so bear with me!)... but I can't for the life of me find the answer on Google, so I thought I'd rely on your folks here instead.

My question is: when writing music, when do you use the sharp or flat notation to describe the same note? For example: when is C-sharp written as C-sharp and not D-flat?

I appreciate there might not be a simple answer here for my simple mind... but if anyone can help briefly clarify then please do.

Cheers as always.[/quote]

[Doddy]

It really depends of the key of the piece. Sharp keys like G,D,A etc will usually have the accidentals written in
sharps,while flat keys like F,Bb,Eb etc will usually be written as flats.
So,in the key of E major you would have a C#,but in the key of F major you would have a Db.

Of course,sometimes you get variations but as a general rule,this is how it goes.

[Bilbo]

As a guide (not an absolute), think in terms of the series of letters ABCDEFG. If you have an A, you need a B be that a Bb or B natural and so on through the alphabet. So in the key of F, you get FGABbCDE not FGAA#CDE. In the key of D you get DEF#GABC# not DEGbGABDbD- is this making sense? In a nutshell, you don't want the same note name being used as a natural and a flat or sharp because, if you do, you have accidentals all over the written chart and it looks like a train wreck

[neilb]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1247521' date='May 27 2011, 08:05 PM']As a guide (not an absolute), think in terms of the series of letters ABCDEFG. If you have an A, you need a B be that a Bb or B natural and so on through the alphabet. So in the key of F, you get FGABbCDE not FGAA#CDE. In the key of D you get DEF#GABC# not DEGbGABDbD- is this making sense? In a nutshell, you don't want the same note name being used as a natural and a flat or sharp because, if you do, you have accidentals all over the written chart and it looks like a train wreck[/quote]


I actually understood that, thanks Bilbo.

[Skol303]

Brilliant... I get it now. Many thanks!

This was particularly useful:

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1247521' date='May 27 2011, 08:05 PM']As a guide (not an absolute), think in terms of the series of letters ABCDEFG. If you have an A, you need a B be that a Bb or B natural and so on through the alphabet. So in the key of F, you get FGABbCDE not FGAA#CDE. In the key of D you get DEF#GABC# not DEGbGABDbD- is this making sense?[/quote]

...in fact, the replies get progressively easier for me to understand the further down the page!

I'm not even going to attempt this one - it makes my head hurt:



[quote name='markstuk' post='1247334' date='May 27 2011, 05:00 PM']OF course this opens the debate as to whether A Sharp and B flat are the same note :-)[/quote]

Thanks again all.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1247521' date='May 27 2011, 08:05 PM']As a guide (not an absolute), think in terms of the series of letters ABCDEFG. If you have an A, you need a B be that a Bb or B natural and so on through the alphabet. So in the key of F, you get FGABbCDE not FGAA#CDE. In the key of D you get DEF#GABC# not DEGbGABDbD- is this making sense? In a nutshell, you don't want the same note name being used as a natural and a flat or sharp because, if you do, you have accidentals all over the written chart and it looks like a train wreck[/quote]
To reduce the chance of a trainwreck even further, why in god's holy name aren't the notes named ABCDEFGHIJKI ??

[ZMech]

[quote name='markstuk' post='1247334' date='May 27 2011, 05:00 PM']OF course this opens the debate as to whether A Sharp and B flat are the same note :-)[/quote]
Unless like you feel like owning a piano for each key, yes, they are skol, mark's referring to[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament"] tempered [/url]Vs harmonic tuning systems.

[lowdown]

[quote name='silddx' post='1247588' date='May 27 2011, 09:01 PM']To reduce the chance of a trainwreck even further, why in god's holy name aren't the notes named ABCDEFGHIJKI ??[/quote]


In some instances of written German notation [used throughout Europe] H=B...
So in a chromatic line descending from 'C' you would get C - H - B - A. [as opposed to C B Bb A]

Quite an interesting read on notation here.
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Note"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Note[/url]

Quarter tone notation - don't even go there, the flat symbol is reversed.

[url="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/215/quartertone.jpg/"][/url]



Garry

Edited May 28, 2011 by lowdown

[essexbasscat]

In a previous disscusion about this (it used to puzzle me too) I heard the wise words "ask a violinist if the keys of C# and Db are the same", then batten down your hatches.

[lowdown]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='1247974' date='May 28 2011, 10:13 AM']In a previous disscusion about this (it used to puzzle me too) I heard the wise words "ask a violinist if the keys of C# and Db are the same", then batten down your hatches.[/quote]


But [b]don't[/b] ask a Viola player - they are the Morris Dancer of the Orchestra.



Garry

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='1247974' date='May 28 2011, 10:13 AM']In a previous disscusion about this (it used to puzzle me too) I heard the wise words "ask a violinist if the keys of C# and Db are the same", then batten down your hatches.[/quote]

in a similar vein, don't tell the string section the (true) reason strings can sound so lush is because they are all out of tune with each other

[scalpy]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='1255057' date='Jun 3 2011, 09:07 AM']in a similar vein, don't tell the string section the (true) reason strings can sound so lush is because they are all out of tune with each other [/quote]

That's what vibrato is for!

[Balcro]

Markstuk, Doddy and Bilbo are all correct in their descriptions. Think of it as a music writing protocol related to the key in which the music is written. Yes C# and Db are the same physical note (and so are all the other combinations of adjacent notes), but if the key changes then so does the note description on the stave.

Balcro.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Balcro

[Bilbo]

I guess another way of thinking about it relates to the key signature. The signature tells you which notes in the song's key are sharp or which notes are flat. A key signature can't tell you that a note is both. So, in the key of D, you would have two sharps, C and F. Whereas, in the key of Ab you would have 4 flats Ab, Bb, Db and Eb. If you did the key signature of D as flats, you would have both a D natural and a Db and also both a G and Gb so a key signature would be impossible.

[Juggernot]

Hullo,

What's an accidental?

fanks

Chris

[Doddy]

[quote name='Juggernot' post='1268287' date='Jun 14 2011, 09:54 AM']Hullo,

What's an accidental?

fanks

Chris[/quote]

An accidental is a note that is not in key.
Say you are in the Key of G....if you see an F natural,that would be an accidental,because in that key you would normally have an F#. Or,in the key of C,any sharp or flat note written would be an accidental.

[ras52]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1268346' date='Jun 14 2011, 10:47 AM']An accidental is a note that is not in key.
Say you are in the Key of G....if you see an F natural,that would be an accidental,because in that key you would normally have an F#. Or,in the key of C,any sharp or flat note written would be an accidental.[/quote]
Or more strictly, a note that is not in the key [b]signature [/b](or corrects a prior accidental back to the scheme of the sig).

So in G we have F# in the sig. If we modulated to B flat without changing the sig, we'd use accidentals to indicate the F naturals, B flats and E flats.

Or consider a lot of contemporary classical music where key sigs aren't used at all, in which case every sharp or flat is an accidental.

[farmer61]

[quote name='neilb' post='1247568' date='May 27 2011, 08:46 PM']I actually understood that, thanks Bilbo.[/quote]
Blimey me too...cheers Bilbo

[farmer61]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='1247974' date='May 28 2011, 10:13 AM']In a previous disscusion about this (it used to puzzle me too) I heard the wise words "ask a violinist if the keys of C# and Db are the same", then batten down your hatches.[/quote]
This

I thought that in non fretted instruments the #'s and b's are different notes, not sure I could tell the difference tbh.

[Steve Dixon]

just here to reiterate what the others have said.. if you're in a flat key, try to use flats, and in a sharp key, try sharps

a couple of other things to throw out there... in a lot of cases, the score is there as a recipe for a musician to read, and bring forth some music meaning that your NUMBER ONE job as a score writer is to make it as easy as possible to read for the person tryng to play it... that's the thing that should inform all your scoring decisions, from beaming, tying to use of accidentals...

So in G minor, your leading note will be F# not Gb, even though the key is flat, and you'd usually try to use flat accidentals

which brings us to the other thing to consider... you might be tempted to use (for example) a B natural instead of a C flat in certain places, but if your underlying chord is Ab minor, then your 3rd has to be some kind of C

how you decide between 'easy to read' and 'musically correct' is up to you.. most times it's obvious, occasionally it's not...

[xgsjx]

I knew middle eastern music used 1/4 tones (thanks to a Yamaha thing that I think replaced the DX7 & I can't remember the name of it, that brought this to my attention) & it's also used in Greek music.

I thought the reason behind this was one of 2 things: 1, they had poor intonation on the fretless instruments & 2, didn't tune up properly on the fretted (& non stringed instruments that had 1/4 tones was made by a crap luthier)

[ras52]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1276793' date='Jun 21 2011, 10:48 AM']I knew middle eastern music used 1/4 tones (thanks to a Yamaha thing that I think replaced the DX7 & I can't remember the name of it, that brought this to my attention) & it's also used in Greek music.

I thought the reason behind this was one of 2 things: 1, they had poor intonation on the fretless instruments & 2, didn't tune up properly on the fretted (& non stringed instruments that had 1/4 tones was made by a crap luthier) [/quote]
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=142240&hl="]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=142240&hl=[/url]

[ras52]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1276793' date='Jun 21 2011, 10:48 AM']I knew middle eastern music used 1/4 tones (thanks to a Yamaha thing that I think replaced the DX7 & I can't remember the name of it, that brought this to my attention) & it's also used in Greek music.

I thought the reason behind this was one of 2 things: 1, they had poor intonation on the fretless instruments & 2, didn't tune up properly on the fretted (& non stringed instruments that had 1/4 tones was made by a crap luthier) [/quote]
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=142240&hl="]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=142240&hl=[/url]

[xgsjx]