Fake Fenders...'swhere the money is!

[iconic]

...I mean, with so many seemingly kicking around, surely someone here must have unknowingly bought one or know someone who has.....got to be a few stories.


Being car dealer, all this reminds me of the Lotus Cortina's and Mini Cooper's, Ford GT-40's etc..at one point there were more GT-40's registered than were originally built...strange but true

[voxpop]

I really want to buy an old P bass but unfortunately have resisted because I would not be able to tell a fake. This is making me very frustrated as the Market ( eBay ) seems to be flooded with fakes.

[Shambo]

Having pointed out a blatant one recently, I'm in two minds about it. Part of me is sad that someone is gonna get ripped off but another part thinks, if you're in the market for an old Fender, you're a fool for not doing your homework and are traditionally parted from your money at some point.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Shambo

[The Bass Doc]

[quote name='voxpop' post='1171710' date='Mar 22 2011, 08:03 AM']I really want to buy an old P bass but unfortunately have resisted because I would not be able to tell a fake. This is making me very frustrated as the Market ( eBay ) seems to be flooded with fakes.[/quote]

One of the benefits of this forum is that the combined knowledge of fellow Basschatters should keep any risk to a minimum, if not eliminate it [color="#9932CC"]altogether[/color].

(EVERYBODY:- "One of the benefits of this forum is that the combined knowledge of fellow Basschatters should keep any risk to a minimum, if not eliminate it."

[iconic]

[quote name='voxpop' post='1171710' date='Mar 22 2011, 08:03 AM']I really want to buy an old P bass but unfortunately have resisted because I would not be able to tell a fake. This is making me very frustrated as the Market ( eBay ) seems to be flooded with fakes.[/quote]


me too....and when buying blind, even harder

[Musky]

[quote name='The Bass Doc' post='1171727' date='Mar 22 2011, 08:26 AM']One of the benefits of this forum is that the combined knowledge of fellow Basschatters should keep any risk to a minimum, if not eliminate it [color="#9932CC"]altogether[/color].

(EVERYBODY:- "One of the benefits of this forum is that the combined knowledge of fellow Basschatters should keep any risk to a minimum, if not eliminate it."[/quote]


+1

Yesterday I added a [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=128339"]timeline for the features on a 70's precision[/url] for anyone who is considering picking one up. There's doubtless omissions and errors in there, so if anybody wants to correct it please chip in.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Musky

[ikay]

[quote name='The Bass Doc' post='1171727' date='Mar 22 2011, 08:26 AM']One of the benefits of this forum is that the combined knowledge of fellow Basschatters should keep any risk to a minimum, if not eliminate it altogether.[/quote]
The book 'Fender Bass - an illustrated history' is a useful reference - [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fender-Bass-Illustrated-History/dp/0634026402"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fender-Bass-Illust...y/dp/0634026402[/url]

...as is the information on this vintage guitar site - [url="http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fender.html"]http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fender.html[/url]

Any questions or concerns about a specific fender bass just ask this forum and someone will most likely be able to help

Edited March 22, 2011 by ikay

[Happy Jack]

It helps to know & trust your vendor - that's the whole point of a community.

Like the OP, I was VERY slow to get into vintage Fenders because it was obvious that a high proportion were either ... erm ... not entirely as described, or just outright fakes.

It's a question of treading very carefully, and being careful who you buy from.

[dan670844]

[quote name='iconic' post='1171702' date='Mar 22 2011, 07:47 AM']...I mean, with so many seemingly kicking around, surely someone here must have unknowingly bought one or know someone who has.....got to be a few stories.


Being car dealer, all this reminds me of the Lotus Cortina's and Mini Cooper's, Ford GT-40's etc..at one point there were more GT-40's registered than were originally built...strange but true[/quote]

And you have to ask yourself..... why you want a vintage fender?
Yes they are pretty well made, no suprise there as they where expensive at the time about £140-180 quid back in the early sixties, which put them up there in custom shop pricing region, not american std area. So thats where you should make your comparisions.
The survivors have usually been played by career muso 's so they have been fettled to be great over the years.
Pickups are scatterwound, by hand, no machine, can replicate the tonal qualities that produces, try some wizards!

Downsides they can suffer from neck curl.
Everyone wants to steal it, so playing bars small clubs, where people can walk on the stage is impractical!
They where fettled together as there where no cnc machines, so getting replacement parts to fit is a nightmare, yes i used to own an MGC!! ha hah the comparsion fairs well.
There are a lot of fakes. They didn't sell as many people think in the golden era i.e pre CBS

I have some fullerton jazzers some fuji jap ones and some american std ones and have tried some custom shop repro's. I think the custom shop stuff is pretty amazing, like the originals but better as they have solved all the curly neck problems, with decent truss rod etc, wonky bridges, pickup drop . I don't think the old ones are worth what they go for, the values are getting silly, it is a mass produced product after all, not made in the same way a somthing from kalamazoo (gibson 50-60's)

[xilddx]

[quote name='voxpop' post='1171710' date='Mar 22 2011, 08:03 AM']I really want to buy an old P bass but unfortunately have resisted because I would not be able to tell a fake. This is making me very frustrated as the Market ( eBay ) seems to be flooded with fakes.[/quote]
Talk to this man.

[url="http://www.andybaxterbass.com/guitars.php"]http://www.andybaxterbass.com/[/url]

Edited March 22, 2011 by silddx

[Dubs]

[quote name='dan670844' post='1171860' date='Mar 22 2011, 10:43 AM']And you have to ask yourself..... why you want a vintage fender?

I don't think the old ones are worth what they go for...[/quote]

This is OT, but I think there are 3 reasons why people pay the money for a vintage Fender: For a lot of people it's about buying a piece of history. For others it's about image and the peer approval that comes with owning a vintage Fender. Others, rightly or wrongly, believe they're the holy grail of electric bass and anything else is a compromise. A lot of people buy them for a combination of the above, but essentially they are the reasons.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Dubs' post='1172144' date='Mar 22 2011, 02:34 PM']This is OT, but I think there are 3 reasons why people pay the money for a vintage Fender: For a lot of people it's about buying a piece of history. For others it's about image and the peer approval that comes with owning a vintage Fender. Others, rightly or wrongly, believe they're the holy grail of electric bass and anything else is a compromise. A lot of people buy them for a combination of the above, but essentially they are the reasons.[/quote]
I don't actually agree with those reasons, not that they're wrong, just peripheral to what I think is the main reason - which I believe to be that most people who want a vintage Fender think they will have a living thing in their hands which they can have a relationship with, a best friend upon which they can visit all their pain and joy, and stare at lovingly for long periods of time. They want to be able to say 'this is my bass, we speak in tongues together, I need no other'. They want a bass with a pulse.

Edited March 22, 2011 by silddx

[Dubs]

[quote name='silddx' post='1172155' date='Mar 22 2011, 02:51 PM']I don't actually agree with those reasons, not that they're wrong, just peripheral to what I think is the main reason - which I believe to be that most people who want a vintage Fender think they will have a living thing in their hands which they can have a relationship with, a best friend upon which they can visit all their pain and joy, and stare at lovingly for long periods of time. They want to be able to say 'this is my bass, we speak in tongues together, I need no other'.[/quote]



Ok, I get what you're saying, but that could be said of any bass of any age/origin/provenance/value.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Dubs' post='1172160' date='Mar 22 2011, 02:55 PM']

Ok, I get what you're saying, but that could be said of any bass of any age/origin/provenance/value.[/quote]
Wot, even a Ibanez?

[RhysP]

[quote name='Dubs' post='1172144' date='Mar 22 2011, 02:34 PM']This is OT, but I think there are 3 reasons why people pay the money for a vintage Fender: For a lot of people it's about buying a piece of history. For others it's about image and the peer approval that comes with owning a vintage Fender. Others, rightly or wrongly, believe they're the holy grail of electric bass and anything else is a compromise. A lot of people buy them for a combination of the above, but essentially they are the reasons.[/quote]
You didn't mention what I think is one of THE main reasons - the fact that people see vintage Fenders as a risk free investment that will reap them serious dividends if they hang onto it for 10 years or so.

[xilddx]

[quote name='RhysP' post='1172189' date='Mar 22 2011, 03:19 PM']You didn't mention what I think is one of THE main reasons - the fact that people see vintage Fenders as a risk free investment that will reap them serious dividends if they hang onto it for 10 years or so.[/quote]
I can never decide if those people are deluded or cynical.

[dan670844]

[quote name='RhysP' post='1172189' date='Mar 22 2011, 03:19 PM']You didn't mention what I think is one of THE main reasons - the fact that people see vintage Fenders as a risk free investment that will reap them serious dividends if they hang onto it for 10 years or so.[/quote]


Ha Ha just like any other investment, I bought mine in the 80's when no one wanted them, everyone wanted an Aria!! / Active bass for that stroking 80's sound haha me included.

All I am saying they are not greater than the sum of their parts like a uber handcrafted machine, like a German warwick for example or a wal, these are quite different, they really are alive! as they have a lot of the maker's mark in them. Even if you don't like them you must appreciate that. Fender's are a mass produced item abeit a good one. For a working bass player there are many opportunites to acquire a fender type model for a lot less money, that sounds just as good as a 'original' like a custom shop, luthier, hell even build one yourself. The old ones are good, because of the quality of the materials and components. Values of the early jazzes are approaching £8000-20K that is laughable. When you can buy superior / comparable crafted stuff even by Fender for less money. But its all part of the game, Its what makes a brand desirable.

[dan670844]

[quote name='Dubs' post='1172144' date='Mar 22 2011, 02:34 PM']This is OT, but I think there are 3 reasons why people pay the money for a vintage Fender: For a lot of people it's about buying a piece of history. For others it's about image and the peer approval that comes with owning a vintage Fender. Others, rightly or wrongly, believe they're the holy grail of electric bass and anything else is a compromise. A lot of people buy them for a combination of the above, but essentially they are the reasons.[/quote]

True I agree, but its total irrational!! but thats human behaviour!

[Dubs]

[quote name='RhysP' post='1172189' date='Mar 22 2011, 03:19 PM']You didn't mention what I think is one of THE main reasons - the fact that people see vintage Fenders as a risk free investment that will reap them serious dividends if they hang onto it for 10 years or so.[/quote]

No investment is risk free. These things (fashion) come in circles; as unlikely as it may seem right now, in 10/15 years time the arse may completely drop off the end of the vintage Fender market and people could see their 'investments' worth 30% less than they paid for them today. I'm not sure that anyone other than a musician would 'invest' in the vintage Fender market. Anyway, I think it's a fairly consequential/subordinate reason for buying a vintage Fender, i.e. if I had £2k to make a 'risk free' investment with, I'd probably put it into Premium Bonds rather than the vintage Fender market.

[voxpop]

[quote name='silddx' post='1171931' date='Mar 22 2011, 11:35 AM']Talk to this man.

[url="http://www.andybaxterbass.com/guitars.php"]http://www.andybaxterbass.com/[/url][/quote]


Fantastic............... thanks
He has a good looking Gibson EB 0 from 1966 the year I was born.

[RhysP]

[quote name='Dubs' post='1172264' date='Mar 22 2011, 04:20 PM']I'm not sure that anyone other than a musician would 'invest' in the vintage Fender market.[/quote]
The large majority of vintage guitars sold in the USA over the last 15 years haven't been bought by musicians, they've been bought by non-players with high salary jobs.

Most of the really desirable Fenders & Gibsons are out of the price range of your average player, and the crap you couldn't give away 20 years ago is heading that way too.

[iconic]

[quote name='RhysP' post='1172504' date='Mar 22 2011, 07:50 PM']The large majority of vintage guitars sold in the USA over the last 15 years haven't been bought by musicians, they've been bought by non-players with high salary jobs.

Most of the really desirable Fenders & Gibsons are out of the price range of your average player, and the crap you couldn't give away 20 years ago is heading that way too.[/quote]


....maybe this is why these fakes seem to get sold, they are bought by people who know a vintage Fender is worth a few quid but wouldn't a Sue Ryder from '71 P bass and think they are getting possible bargain from fleabay descriptions like, "'Fender 1971 but not sure as don't know anything about guitars, make your one mind up but no reason to think otherwise" type listings....just like any other they appeal to greed..

[gjones]

There will be a time when your MIM Jazz will be a sought after classic. Just put it under the bed and wait 50 years.

[Cat Burrito]

I bought a fake. There was a thread about it at the time. I saw a CIJ Fender P-bass online for £350 that looked believable. It was £25 for Parcel Force 24 delivery and when it arrived 8 days later it had been sent Parcel Force 48. The second I opened it I realised I had a rebadged Squier VM bass. The seller was a complete fraud about it and suddenly it was being sold on behalf of somebody else etc, they knew nothing about guitars etc.

EBay to their credit (& this was pre-credit crunch so they don't offer this service now) refunded me, banned the seller and let me keep the bass. I sold it on as a rebadged Squier (on here as it happens). It was actually a nice bass but I couldn't really keep it after all that. Interestingly EBay didn't seem that interested at first until I mentioned the postage being 48hr when I paid 24hr - then suddenly all my comments on Tuning pegs, neck finish and volume knobs were completely believed. I had to check about 4 times that they were happy for a refund AND for me to keep it. As I said, it's not a service they've offered since. Must have cost a fortune.

[lojo]

[quote name='BurritoBass' post='1172541' date='Mar 22 2011, 08:18 PM']I bought a fake. There was a thread about it at the time. I saw a CIJ Fender P-bass online for £350 that looked believable. It was £25 for Parcel Force 24 delivery and when it arrived 8 days later it had been sent Parcel Force 48. The second I opened it I realised I had a rebadged Squier VM bass. The seller was a complete fraud about it and suddenly it was being sold on behalf of somebody else etc, they knew nothing about guitars etc.

EBay to their credit (& this was pre-credit crunch so they don't offer this service now) refunded me, banned the seller and let me keep the bass. I sold it on as a rebadged Squier (on here as it happens). It was actually a nice bass but I couldn't really keep it after all that. Interestingly EBay didn't seem that interested at first until I mentioned the postage being 48hr when I paid 24hr - then suddenly all my comments on Tuning pegs, neck finish and volume knobs were completely believed. I had to check about 4 times that they were happy for a refund AND for me to keep it. As I said, it's not a service they've offered since. Must have cost a fortune.[/quote]


I wonder how many people have brought them and not realized, not bundles of profit in it if your only doing a few

What is sad about that is the guy doing it must know something about basses to try that and state CIJ etc, and its a shame to think of someone into instruments and music wanting to con people