NYC Sadowsky at Guitar Guitar!!!

[Chris2112]

[quote name='birdy' post='963191' date='Sep 21 2010, 12:22 PM']I find this strange and wonder if its down to the shop and their setup perhaps? I have owned about 7 metros and they have all, without exception, been superb basses and way ahead of most Fenders I have played.[/quote]

I don't know about that, because when I played an NYC bass it was privately owned.

I suppose a large part of my disappointment was that I was sitting down with a "Sadowsky", a name that has some much weight attached. And at the end of the day, when it's just a jazz bass and not a particularly outstanding one at that, you're bound to be left feeling disapppointed. I like jazz basses just as much as the next bloke, but for the same cash you could have a Sei or a Wal!

[CHRISDABASS]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='963324' date='Sep 21 2010, 02:10 PM']I think they make Lakland Skylines in either groups of 30 or 60 according to the last time I asked them. Might be more now.

Kevin seemed fine, it was Roger who seemed rather, hmm, I wont say anything rude.[/quote]


It may have been the old Lakland factory but im sure i remember reading something similar somewhere but it was 30 - 60 of each model, they'd then have stock for each of the colour options plus 5 strings etc

How many models do they have?

(i could be and will most likely be wrong)

[CHRISDABASS]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='963269' date='Sep 21 2010, 01:25 PM']Jees guys calm it! Dont get so defensive! We all chase the same thing on here

I personally think at those prices, you are best off with a Sei, or an Alleva. Without a doubt.

The NYCs arent everywhere here, but they are in the USA.

I dont see, despite the fact I dont like how Lakland finish off their basses, why their is such a price difference on a fairly mass produced Metro cf to a Lakland Skyline.

All made elsewhere then checked and fitted in the USA.

Not a problem with that, but I dont see why they cost so much?!

I wouldnt mind, but when I emailed them a fair while back, I felt slightly miffed at the somewhat sharp and slightly off responses. Made me realised If I had a problem with one once Id bought it, Id not feel happy complaining.[/quote]


Its gonna be interesting to see what happens to the opinion on Alleva's now Jimmy is using his new cnc machine for everything!

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='963348' date='Sep 21 2010, 02:29 PM']I don't know about that, because when I played an NYC bass it was privately owned.

I suppose a large part of my disappointment was that I was sitting down with a "Sadowsky", a name that has some much weight attached. And at the end of the day, when it's just a jazz bass and not a particularly outstanding one at that, you're bound to be left feeling disapppointed. I like jazz basses just as much as the next bloke, but for the same cash you could have a Sei or a Wal![/quote]

This is the same as my experience, except I tried all Metros.

They have outstandting fit and finish (and so they should) which id never argue with.


[quote name='CHRISDABASS' post='963352' date='Sep 21 2010, 02:34 PM']Its gonna be interesting to see what happens to the opinion on Alleva's now Jimmy is using his new cnc machine for everything! [/quote]

Exactly.

Lets face it, if we were offered cash on something we'd worked on for years, hell yes Id sell and enjoy my life. Why not? In 5 years times Sadowsky and Alleva will be much larger names, and something else will be boutique.

Same with a band. Id sell out in seconds if it meant earning and not stressing myself out being a trainee solicitor

If I remember correctly, one underground hardcore band said (Coalesce):

"Sometimes selling out is waking up."

Edited September 21, 2010 by Musicman20

[bubinga5]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='963348' date='Sep 21 2010, 02:29 PM']I don't know about that, because when I played an NYC bass it was privately owned.

I suppose a large part of my disappointment was that I was sitting down with a "Sadowsky", a name that has some much weight attached. And at the end of the day, when it's just a jazz bass and not a particularly outstanding one at that, you're bound to be left feeling disapppointed. I like jazz basses just as much as the next bloke, but for the same cash you could have a Sei or a Wal![/quote]
This may have been because you just didnt like the feel of a Sadowsky...that doesnt mean anything, apart from you didnt like it...doesnt mean that Sadowsky doesnt carry much weight...Ok you may be able to get a Sei or a Wal for the same money but i f you dont like those two there prob gonna feel rubbish in your eyes also..

Jazzes are so different from one maker to the next..To me my Fender CS is the best jazz bass ive played but it dont mean nothing to anyone else... i am also confused as to why you can get a Skyline for so much less than you can get a Metro...i know what i would buy...

[hillbilly deluxe]

Overpriced Jazz copy.For the price i'd want something a bit more original than that,no matter how good the fit and finish is.

[Marlat]

Personally I'd rather the bass that felt and sounded right for me, regardless of how original it was.

[CHRISDABASS]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='963383' date='Sep 21 2010, 03:08 PM']This may have been because you just didnt like the feel of a Sadowsky...that doesnt mean anything, apart from you didnt like it...doesnt mean that Sadowsky doesnt carry much weight...Ok you may be able to get a Sei or a Wal for the same money but i f you dont like those two there prob gonna feel rubbish in your eyes also..

Jazzes are so different from one maker to the next..To me my Fender CS is the best jazz bass ive played but it dont mean nothing to anyone else... i am also confused as to why you can get a Skyline for so much less than you can get a Metro...i know what i would buy...[/quote]


+1

You dont have to like them

They're not for everyone

For me they have the perfect balance of everything i want out of an instrument and more!! im just so glad i bought my NYC from roger when i did! With the current exchange rate i cant afford a new one!! Not yet anyway

[CHRISDABASS]

[quote name='hillbilly deluxe' post='963384' date='Sep 21 2010, 03:10 PM']Overpriced Jazz copy.For the price i'd want something a bit more original than that,no matter how good the fit and finish is.[/quote]

If everyone were actually copying fender jazz basses there'd be an awful lot of dodgy ones out there

[hillbilly deluxe]

There are.

[JTUK]

I always thought Sadwosky had a really good take on a Fender.

If they ( Fender ) were perfect in the beginning, then he probably wouldn't have gotten much business and made his name as he has.

But here is a prediction ... after a lifetime building up a name, you may not be best pleased if it tails off
when you retire. The better option may well be to build up that name into a brand and go bigger. It may well not mean better but someone will buy out a good name and expand on the business model and you have a better pension pot.

I'd suggest we will have quite a few name makers go to mass build. I'd even suggest 30 plus a month was mass build ( all relative ) as the original luthier isn't going to be able to do that.
As far as I can recall...40 basses year is as much as a 2 man team can build whilst working on most of the bass themselves.

And if you don't have a specific client for a build, then I'd call that a production model.
You would have to be very careful how you water down your models whilst retaining the yields, IMO.

[CHRISDABASS]

Ive just been speaking to roger about the mass production issue etc

He read this thread and gave me these figures

Average NYC production is 15-20 basses a month.
Average Metro production is 40 basses a month, worldwide.
We have 7 builders in the NY workshop.


I bet fender do that in a day!! Lol

[bubinga5]

i would ALWAYS buy second hand these days...unless i was loaded and really wanted a bass bad..(i would if i was rich believe me i would have a house full of basses).. but being on a budget at the mo like i am, there are so many bargains to be had...good god i got a Sei for a grand..i got a £2700 fender for £1100 ish...

Most of the time, especially buying from Molan, the basses are set up way better than a shop anyway...

on a different note, can you think of a jazz bass that has a distinctive tone like a Sadowsky..apart from a passive fender...i never hear from anyone..oh that Alleva tone, or that Celinder tone...maybe because these company's havent stamped there sound... but i always hear..man that Sadowsky tone tone is the bomb...i wish i still had my RV5..

end of waffle

Edited September 21, 2010 by bubinga5

[funkyspuke]

from those figures, I would hardly class them as mass produced bass'

I also think the fact that you managed to get Rodger Sadowsky to have a look at this forum and reply as quick as he has shows just how committed he is to his brand.

on the subject of Sadowsky's vs Fenders .. well, I used to hate anything Fender, thought they sounded poor & weak. it was Modulus all the way for me!

however, my interest in the vintage sound started to grow. I tried a US Fender Delux in a store in Manchester .. all I can say is that I walked out disappointed and never wanting to touch one again. however, when I listend to CHRISDABASS play what seemed to be a Fender (it was actually his Sadowsky NYC) I instantly heard something I had never heard before from a vintage bass .. especially a Fender looking one! instantly hooked I was! the feel and sound of the bass is just amazing, hence when I shot out and bought a Metro.

Edited September 21, 2010 by funkyspuke

[Chris2112]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='963367' date='Sep 21 2010, 02:53 PM']This is the same as my experience, except I tried all Metros.

They have outstandting fit and finish (and so they should) which id never argue with.[/quote]

Well, the NYC was decently finished and felt fairly solid but in truth was no more exciting to me than any other jazz bass despite the price tag. The Metros were of fair fit and finish, pleasantly set up but nothing outstanding, certainly not Alembic/Status/Sei levels of fit and finish. They were new into the shop at the time too so I doubt it was a life of shop soiling that was clouding my judgement!

However, when I think of good jazz basses I'll always go back to one that I played at Howard's Bass Place. A red CIJ jazz with EMG pickups: it played itself and sounded incredible. Jazz growl but with an added bite that was very characterful and pleasing and a very useable midrange. It was something like £400, I'd have bought it in a second had I had the cash at the time!

[bubinga5]

i have always thought in my experience that Fender jazzes take a little more getting used to if you used to playing active basses...ive had many active basses that blew me away...at one time i was playing nothing but active basses ...when i came back back to a passive jazz bass i was underwhelmed..i found out (this may be just me) that i needed to come down off of that super jazz active sound and take some time to get back down (in a good way) to the passive sound... it was very rewarding...

trouble is with basses there are so many variables that make a good bass sound...unfortunately Fender is mass produced, so they dont have Jimmy Copollo's attention to the instruments...maybe this is why people say that older Fenders are better..no mass production..

[Chris2112]

If anything though, I think Fender's custom shop are better today than they've ever been and the same can probably be said for their general QC. But the design of the jazz and P bass (for me) is really starting to age now and in all corners of the market there are better shapes and sounds. For me and many others, anyway.

[TheGreek]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='963649' date='Sep 21 2010, 07:00 PM']Well, the NYC was decently finished and felt fairly solid but in truth was no more exciting to me than any other jazz bass despite the price tag. The Metros were of fair fit and finish, pleasantly set up but nothing outstanding, certainly not Alembic/Status/Sei levels of fit and finish. They were new into the shop at the time too so I doubt it was a life of shop soiling that was clouding my judgement!

However, when I think of good jazz basses I'll always go back to one that I played at Howard's Bass Place. A red CIJ jazz with EMG pickups: it played itself and sounded incredible. Jazz growl but with an added bite that was very characterful and pleasing and a very useable midrange. It was something like £400, I'd have bought it in a second had I had the cash at the time![/quote]
[size=3]Why is it that everybody reminisces about fenders they [u]used[/u] to have?? Doesn't anybody still have a good one? Or is it that good Fenders are merely a [b]myth[/b]??
To be honest I've never played one that's half as good as anything currently in my living room. Aren't Fenders merely the Emporer's clothes...If they were as good as the rep nobody else would sell anything!![/size]

[Chris2112]

Well, that was a Fender that I had never bought. And really, when you think of what you can get for your money, I wouldn't dare buy a new one. I dare say I'll probably not buy a Fender design again. They are certainly useable but I prefer to be blown away by the basses that amaze me rather than play the basses that feel alright but not incredible.


I think the fact that many others are adopting this mindset is encouraging as it has given many luthiers a chance to expand: Wal, Status, Shuker, Spector, Fodera, Alembic, Schack etc etc...

[bubinga5]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='963677' date='Sep 21 2010, 07:31 PM']If anything though, I think Fender's custom shop are better today than they've ever been and the same can probably be said for their general QC. But the design of the jazz and P bass (for me) is really starting to age now and in all corners of the market there are better shapes and sounds. For me and many others, anyway.[/quote]
i think mass market instrument will always slip and slide in and out of good and bad consistent building...it must be a nightmare to keep a hold on..

your second point really depends on what people want Chris..there is something about instruments be it bass, guitar, piano, DB, that will always be traditional...im all for pushing the boundries...but do you see that many people buying the lightwave system?..great bass ive played one, but there is only so many things you can change with instruments...its only notes after all..

there is something very organic about the old school sound...all people need is something to express themselves..it just so happens that the original fender sound seemed to appeal to so many..and i can see why..

i think there is a limit as to how much further you can push the electric bass..there are only so many attributes it has..the music changes not the instrument

imagine the multitude of different things you can do in music..now imagine how many different things you can do to an electric bass...does it really matter....?

[bubinga5]

[quote name='TheGreek' post='963679' date='Sep 21 2010, 07:32 PM'][size=3]Why is it that everybody reminisces about fenders they [u]used[/u] to have?? Doesn't anybody still have a good one? Or is it that good Fenders are merely a [b]myth[/b]??
To be honest I've never played one that's half as good as anything currently in my living room. Aren't Fenders merely the Emporer's clothes...If they were as good as the rep nobody else would sell anything!![/size][/quote]
you should play mine...ive played Modulus, Shur's, Pensa's, Moon's...IMO mine is way better...it may be a good un,.. but ive played many great Fender's...its all in your own ears though for sure....

i played a 71 in swansea and ive never heard anything quite like it..

the good ones have that something though...very organic....bloody mine field thats the prob..

Edited September 21, 2010 by bubinga5

[Chris2112]

But if you look Bubinga, bassists and guitarists are ridiculously bad for being stuck in the past.

In the 80's, things looked set to take off. Graphite was new to the market and those who adopted it quickly became very proficient at crafting basses with it. Headless design took off, as did active electronics. Solid state amps came and moved the goal posts on heavy, flabby sounding valve amps etc etc.

Then things seemed to stop and largely went back in time in the 90's! Luthiers everywhere continued to improve on the foundations of Ken Smith, Fodera and Alembic etc etc but the frenzy of development seen in the 80's just seemed to tail off (as did musical creativity in general, sadly).

We've come leaps and bounds from the 80's in the past 20 years, but it's sad to think that those days of excellent development and creation are gone.

I guess synth players are the same. They've got incredible technology now but they all want to get their hands on 1980's kit too!

[bubinga5]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='963714' date='Sep 21 2010, 08:03 PM']But if you look Bubinga, bassists and guitarists are ridiculously bad for being stuck in the past.

In the 80's, things looked set to take off. Graphite was new to the market and those who adopted it quickly became very proficient at crafting basses with it. Headless design took off, as did active electronics. Solid state amps came and moved the goal posts on heavy, flabby sounding valve amps etc etc.

Then things seemed to stop and largely went back in time in the 90's! Luthiers everywhere continued to improve on the foundations of Ken Smith, Fodera and Alembic etc etc but the frenzy of development seen in the 80's just seemed to tail off (as did musical creativity in general, sadly).

We've come leaps and bounds from the 80's in the past 20 years, but it's sad to think that those days of excellent development and creation are gone.

I guess synth players are the same. They've got incredible technology now but they all want to get their hands on 1980's kit too! [/quote]
Hey not at all..i think those days are still here Chris...i just dont think that the sound and style of those graphite basses give most players the sound that the want... the Modulus Genesis is a great mix of the stiffness of graphite but the sound of wood...

headless are great, but when you think about it...why? apart from the thought that basses were neck divers..ive had 17 basses and none of them had neck dive...

i think it (MAYBE) tailed off because there wasnt the market for the innovations..i think the thing is alot of players cant really (in a musical situation) tell if its a graphite neck, headless...the ultra hifi sound of the 80's was a thing of the 80's..although i did like it..

the best inovation in bass is Sheldon Dingwall's fan frets...but although they are prob awsome B strings.. i cant see Victor Wooten saying...i gotta have a Dinger...

the bass is an instrument for the most, that is not broken...we just all dwell in the different sounds and feel of what is available...its all in the music...

Edited September 21, 2010 by bubinga5

[JTUK]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='963670' date='Sep 21 2010, 07:26 PM']i have always thought in my experience that Fender jazzes take a little more getting used to if you used to playing active basses...ive had many active basses that blew me away...at one time i was playing nothing but active basses ...when i came back back to a passive jazz bass i was underwhelmed..i found out (this may be just me) that i needed to come down off of that super jazz active sound and take some time to get back down (in a good way) to the passive sound... it was very rewarding...

trouble is with basses there are so many variables that make a good bass sound...unfortunately Fender is mass produced, so they dont have Jimmy Copollo's attention to the instruments...maybe this is why people say that older Fenders are better..no mass production..[/quote]

Go along with most of this.. I run active with a passive switch and I made sure that passive mode was usable sound-wise. It was part of my decision in buying the bass.
The trick with active though is not to get too hung up on the very large range of sounds..
The range of db is not useable at the fringes, IMV

I often run passive just for the hell of it..

[thodrik]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='963714' date='Sep 21 2010, 08:03 PM']But if you look Bubinga, bassists and guitarists are ridiculously bad for being stuck in the past.

In the 80's, things looked set to take off. Graphite was new to the market and those who adopted it quickly became very proficient at crafting basses with it. Headless design took off, as did active electronics. Solid state amps came and moved the goal posts on heavy, flabby sounding valve amps etc etc.

Then things seemed to stop and largely went back in time in the 90's! Luthiers everywhere continued to improve on the foundations of Ken Smith, Fodera and Alembic etc etc but the frenzy of development seen in the 80's just seemed to tail off (as did musical creativity in general, sadly).

We've come leaps and bounds from the 80's in the past 20 years, but it's sad to think that those days of excellent development and creation are gone.

I guess synth players are the same. They've got incredible technology now but they all want to get their hands on 1980's kit too! [/quote]

Its not being stuck in the past, its being comfortable with a classic design that has endured, delivers no matter what the gig or the style of music and never looks out of place at gig regardless of it being a folk, punk, jazz or metal gig. More technology doesn't always make for 'better', it just makes it different. I don't know how a headless bass is that much of an improvement on the concept of the electric bass guitar, though I would be willing to hear it anyone that owns one.

Many of the top-Fender inspired builders have greatly developed the design of Fender inspired basses, with chambering of bodies, pre-amps, the use of CNC, 'plekking', which have all been done with the intent of improving the design and quality control and making better instruments with fewer 'duds' being released. What you are left is a bass that is good balance between old and new. Obviously this isn't for everybody as some don't see the point of changing the original design of Fenders, either because they thought that Fenders were fine as they were or were rubbish in the first place.

I'm not that backward, I do own a Vigier Excess which is full of features that would never have been included on an original Fender, (zero fret, the carbon neck system thing, powerful pre-amp etc), but that doesn't stop a passive Fender from being a classic design in its its simplicity, or Fender-inspired instruments from being equally as good (Sadowsky, Nordstrand, some of the Laklands). A good Fender is something special. I would sell the Vigier before my Precision without question (its easier to find a really good Vigier than a really good late 1970s Fender Precision)

I haved played Warwicks, Wals, Overwater, Spector, but in terms of playability or sound none of them did anything to convince me that I would be improving my sound by ditching a battered old Fender or my 'Fender-clone' Sadowsky.