Phil Starr

[quote name='GreeneKing' timestamp='1485708461' post='3225990'] I have both a LMII and a 500 Tube. They do both have HP Filters if you believe what you read on Talkbass where folk have gone so far as to set up a test rig to check. As was put so well above, the Thumpinator has a steeper cut off. It certainly has a significantly greater effect. [/quote]Don't suppose you have a link to that test? I use a 500Tube and it would be nice to know what they found.

By taking out that subsonic power you are going to cool down your speakers a little and that might keep the impedance down, it can easily double when they get hot. if you did push the speaker beyond Xmax the excursion limit then it will be operating outside the linear part of the magnets field where it is weaker so your sound will be distorted and compressed. If the ports are small then you get turbulence in them at low frequencies and high levels which decreases the port output, any or all of these might become important and will be reduced by one of these. Taking high voltage swings out of your fx chain is going to really affect the triggering of things like compressors and limiters. I think the original Thumpinator filters at 24dB/octave where a lot of inbuilt filtering in amps is less steep at 6 or 12dB, but that depends upon which amp of course. The other thing is that without all that subsonic mush exciting room resonances you will hear other things more clearly.

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1485510917' post='3224423'] For me the "discomfort", for want of a better word, is exactly why I'm doing it. At 54, if I don't take my axe out the bedroom now, I ain't never gonna get no wood chopped. [/quote] Hey, go for it! I didn't play a note until 55 went through the feeling foolish stage and within a year was playing with a band and paid gigs a year after that. Nearly ten years on I've been terrorising audiences all over the South West for seven years. Still feel as if someone is going to tap me on the shoulder and say 'come on you don't really know how to play that thing' but until they do....

I've found the only way is to start a diary, open mic's are always tricky to track down. Often they are only advertised in the pubs that host them and unless they are weekly are often poorly attended. Once you get to the first one talk to the people there who will know where the others are and which are the best ones to aim at. Once I started a diary locally I was stunned to find there are several every day of the week within driving distance. Trouble is the diary goes out of date all the time as they often only run for a few months only to pop up somewhere else.

Good luck. I drift in and out of the open mics. It's a great way of meeting up with local musicians and networking. In any case I'm such a tart for an audience I'd play anywhere that'll have me. The standard is so variable it's almost funny but it usually means anything a bit different and well performed goes down well. Trouble is every time I get back into it a band comes along. I'm planning a weekend of open mics with an old university mate starting tonight. Think we might be mixing Cake by the Ocean with Donovan's Intergalactive Laxative that'll surprise them. Not a pretty image

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1485277871' post='3222746'] If there is noone there there is nothing you can do. We seem to be doing ok at the moment, but ours is a lot more new stuff than previous bands, and that seems to help with the crowd in most places. [/quote] Good for you, I don't think decline is inevitable but we have to adapt if we want audiences. I admire bands that love their music and won't compromise but if it's ageing music it's going to only appeal to a diminishing audience. My worry is that without variety some venues are almost guaranteeing a smaller audience for live music and people will decide an evening with a band is not for them. What's your band called, I guess you must play round here?

If it is just for recording you have the ability to experiment with all sorts of amp and speaker sims including guitar amps and whatever double/multiple tracking works. I think the guys are right though about a lot of that sound coming from the bass and how it is played. I wouldn't be rushing out to buy any gear just yet.

[quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1485281984' post='3222785'] Having this right now. Auditioned/tried out for an indie/post punk/some more general stuff type band and they asked me to join. Gave me a "set list" which I duly learnt some of, then some more, then started running into the "Oh you've learnt those have you, we haven't played those for ages (ever? - slight hint of sarcasm there) supposed to have the first gig in a month. Fingers well and truly crossed. Annoyingly I had a call just after I'd started rehearsing with them from someone who has what seems to be a much more together band that has just lost their bass player, but turned it down as felt I had to give these guys a fair chance (two bands is OK but three is not, for me anyhow).I'm having a bit of a sinking feeling at the moment. Slightly off topic. Apologies. [/quote]Hope it works out for you. My long layoff happened when I fell out with my band over their disorganisation.The guitarist and I had agreed we would give them a few months to improve and would leave together, or at least tell each other when we'd had enough. I didn't feel I should let him down and turned down an audition with a band I'd wanted to play with for a while. The band broke up after a big row a week later. I'm big on loyalty but now think I'd have been better off auditioning for the new band and then telling the old band giving them time to get someone else in to replace me.I think in your situation I'd go and see the other band and if it looks a better bet for you to just be honest and let the other band down as gently as you can.

What's Up Sweet Dreams It's raining Men

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1485217754' post='3222298'] I reckon these are good value for money... [url="https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00D7FIW7I/ref=pe_1963591_136811311_em_1p_0_ti"]https://www.amazon.c...1311_em_1p_0_ti[/url] We have two... [/quote] They are good, and there are other good floor monitors. I've re read the op though and there is some resistance in the band to upping the on stage volume which is why I think we've all homed in on personal monitors, because you have them close to you aren't likely to be loud enough for the rest of the band to hear. It might be worth talking to the rest of the band about monitoring though if they have the money for each of them to have their own floor monitor or IEM's as that sort of system needs planning as a whole band ideally.

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1485178507' post='3221775'] That's a very generous answer, and better than I deserve! The Wirebirds were pretty rough when we started, and I knew only one song they knew, but we managed to get something giggable pretty fast. I think the deadline of an approaching gig does a lot to focus a band's attention! [/quote]Oh God, I hope that I didn't come across as being sarcastic, I apologise if it did. It's just my recent experience has all been in start ups, I've found you can only go at the pace of the slowest, it has frustrated the life out of me when someone says let's learn 10 songs and then you turn up having sweated blood to find no-one else has them all nailed. In fact I've got a first meet up with my latest start up venture in a couple of hours fortunately we've got a fair few songs in common this time. I've listened to the Wirebirds in the past when you had Jenny singing for you, I wanted to get across to see you live but life intervened hopefully if you are playing anywhere near Reading next time I'm up there I can get across to see you.

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1485167456' post='3221624'] Three months of rehearsing? Seems a lot to me. I've played in bands where we have rehearsed once then started gigging, in fact we didn't rehearse whole songs, just intros and outros, and the gigs went fine. My main band still gets together once a week to work on new stuff and just play for the fun of playing, but again we started gigging after a couple of short rehearsals. Any band who expected me to rehearse for months before gigging would be looking for a new bass player! [/quote] It's more than possible you are better than I am I'd probably place a small wager on that. It's also possible that you are playing with more experienced musicians. Playing within a genre also helps, if you are all lifelong blues men then you are going to have a lot of shared experience to draw on. The current start up don't have any shared songs we want to be in the final set list, that's pretty much true of my last two bands also. I reckon learning three or four entirely new songs a week is par for people who work full time, but it depends entirely upon the song, some you can jam out straight away, some take longer.

[quote name='aDx' timestamp='1484488133' post='3215800'] Been trying for ages to find others to play with but no luck!! Where do other peeps here find others? [/quote] It's mostly about networking, a little about music and a lot about you. I can't tell anything about you from this post. I don't know where you live, how old you are or what sort of music you want to play. If I wanted to play with you I don't know what your level of commitment would be or how good and experienced a musician you are. My point is that if you are serious about finding people you need to share as much as possible. It might be that someone on here knows someone who lives near you looking for a bassist. Start by thinking what level of commitment you can offer. That needs to go into any ads you put out and any conversations with potential band members. If the only music you are interested in is metal/folk/reggae or whatever then you need to realise that whatever your choice it is very specialist and you need to say so, and accept that opportunities will be more limited. If you just want to play with other people and genuinely don't mind at this stage what you play then just saying that will open up possibilities. You say you've done the semi pro thing before, and it is hard work. I'm involved at starting up a new covers band and I'm looking at least at three months or weekly rehearsals to get a 30 song list together along with an hour or two of personal practice every day. Once we get going it's going to be 8hrs out of every weekend per gig, plus continued rehearsal and practice. There are plenty of people though who can't give that time but just love playing with other people. You know where to find them, they are hanging round music shops suffering from GAS and probably scanning small ads on the board, they go to watch mates playing the pubs, do a few songs at the open mics and probably have profiles on Bandmix that they've put up at idle moments. Seek them out in those places. Decide what you want from this, the clearer you are in your own head the more likely you are to find a fellow traveller. Then put it about that you are looking. Talk to the guy/girl running the open mic, the person running the guitar shop, the musicians in local bands, because they are the people who know most of the local talent, it's going to be a small community and you need to be part of it. If you go along to open mic/jam sessions then you'll soon realise they play the same songs every week, it isn't too much effort to learn a few and to join in. If you are any good people will want you to play with them. The internet is great for small ads and tracking down the missing part of your band but there is no substitute for talking to people especially at the early stages of getting something together. There are plenty of people out there IME who want to be in a band but don't have the time for a regularly gigging band. Why not try to set that up yourself? Start by looking for one person to work with, as a bassist that's probably a singer/guitarist. Most bands don't come together as a whole, they tend to coalesce around a couple of people who are already making music, but if you come across a band who need a bassist be open to that too. I've always looked for the singer first, without a singer there are no songs. It's amazing how quickly after you start something other people come along who will want to join in. I've often played in a duo and as someone has said you have to beat musicians off with a rolled up newspaper once you start performing. Good luck

i know nothing of those Brook tops but judging by the price I saw in a quick search they may use decent branded drivers. I'd open them up and have a quick look to see what they are, If you the horn drivers are a well known make you should be able to find new ones, maybe even a repair kit. If not then as said Blue Aran will probably be a good bet for suggesting a replacement. Laney would be worth approaching about a replacement driver.

[quote name='Tullfan' timestamp='1409992027' post='2545172'] Hi i saw them at Ilminster. The bass player on this tour is Alan Thompson ex-from John Martyn. I thought he played very well as it was only his second gig with Martin. I was talking to him during the break and he said he had signed up for the whole tour, I presume he was at the gig you were at, too? [/quote]Ilminster! why didn't I know this?

[quote name='3below' timestamp='1484862420' post='3219294'] I managed to destroy a B/W 15" speaker very rapidly in one three minute number. Cause was failed glue where the cone meets the cast frame. There was a 'buzz' which rapidly became a terminated speaker. Not even playing at any serious volume. Further inspection revealed widespread glue failure. I suepect the cause was age, speaker was about 33 years old, well used by me from new. [/quote] this is common with the old BW's (Black Widows), it also happens where the domed dust cap joins the cones. I've stuck a few of these (surrounds and dust caps) back down with Copydex a latex based adhesive, The oldest repair is about eight years old and the speaker is still going strong. I'm not sure if the Sheffields use the same original adhesive but there's no harm in checking.

It's probably just a little resonance you didn't know was there. All speakers have lot's of little resonances and if you hit certain frequencies the can seem to jump out at you. It may be that it is just bad luck that it coincides with something the amp or your bass is doing and emphasizing something that was there unnoticed all the time. Without hearing it it is difficult to say. The fact you only hear it head on suggests it's quite directional which you'd expect with a 4x10. Actually a lot of older cabs are more efficient than modern ones and your amp will be fine with 4 ohms.

It'll help anyone below but won't make too much difference otherwise.

Many thanks to Alex and Bill for their contributions. To be fair the choice of the Kappalite as our example driver wasn't completely accidental, it's one of the best drivers widely available and both of them have either used it in their designs or recommended it, for good reasons. Ironically when we were developing our own 12" design I was the one gung ho about Xlim being the limit and drivers being designed so that the suspension would prevent the coil hitting the back of the magnet. Stevie has always argued that operating a speaker with the coil outside the Xmax limit isn't a good thing to do. He also pointed out that whilst I asserted that any driver designer worth their pay would put a suspension designed to progressively soft limit excursion into their speakers I didn't have any actual data as this isn't freely available on any of the published data sheets. This thread wasn't really aimed at those who already understand all this, though I'm really genuinely grateful to have everyone's input. So I'm going to try to sum up this little bit. I've also tried to be very careful in my language, apart from my over the top headline for the thread (sorry ) I hope that in any statement where I've been summing up complex data I have qualified them with words like sometimes, often, possibly and so on. I'm a science teacher (now retired) so I ought to have got that right. So, the summary so far Speakers fail, not often but they do. Bass players, by the nature of low frequencies push their speakers harder than most people. Most speakers when they fail do so by overheating, a few by physically exceeding the limits of travel. Whilst the coil is working within the speakers magnetic field the way it is designed to do it is pretty unlikely that you will damage the speaker. If you try to go beyond the limits where the manufacturer says you will damage the speaker you will damage the speaker. In the nether regions between Xmax and Xlim the speaker will heat up more quickly and depending upon how long it stays in this region and the chances of failure increase. Different models of speaker will all have slightly different characteristics and their reliability and the details of their failure modes will vary, though you are unlikely to know the details before they fail. However all ported cabs will exhibit a curve broadly like the one here (with two hills and one valley) the danger areas are the hills where excursion is highest and the biggest danger, unless the speaker is really poorly designed, is in the subsonic area, where all you would hear is unwanted crap. In the hilly areas of the curve your speaker won't be able to continuously handle it's rated power and will start to overheat. Finally if you know this you can avoid going near the limits of your speakers with a few simple steps. Knowledge is power (handling) If you want more reading then this is worth a look [url="http://sound.whsites.net/articles/speaker-failure.html"]http://sound.whsites...er-failure.html[/url]

To be honest I'm not sure they will be that much louder than your guitar amp. So much of the output of the guitar is concentrated in the frequencies of the human voice. That's where your hearing and that of your neighbours, is at it's most sensitive. Guitar speakers are more efficient at converting watts into sound anyway so that the overall effect is that a 20W guitar may well subjectively be the same volume as a bass amp of 200W. The only negative thing is that bass will pass through walls doors and windows better than high frequencies. Just limit your loudest practice to the sociable bits of the day and talk to your neighbours about when it won't matter so much to them. Then do the rest of your practice with headphones, which once you get used to it is better than playing through an amp. Playing at low volumes shouldn't affect your tone too much, use the volume on the bass to trim down as well as the amp. In any case you are probably practicing notes and timing not tone so it shouldn't restrict your bass playing, just the fun of making a loud noise

[quote name='ped' timestamp='1484745669' post='3217993'] To be honest I had no idea the email would go to everyone regardless of the setting. It's the first time I've used it - and probably the last! Anyway you know where I'll be on the 4-5th of March if you want to offer some physical resistance ped [/quote]by now you know what the concensus is but I was perfectly happy to be emailed. If it was four a week I might think again but once every four years? I think I can cope.

That's great, It's worth knowing that running high levels of distortion will usually end up with more energy going to the horn driver and this is often why they go. Having the second horn repaired then turning the top end down might be worth consideration. Pleased you got a happy ending.

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1484147758' post='3213040'] I have just done a plot of the cone excursion of a well known, well loved driver the Eminence Kappalite 3012HO. The box is 50L and the tuning frequency is 50Hz The power is 400 watts, the stated power of the 3012HO. The red line is Xmax, the maximum excursion at which the voice coil is under the influence of the magnet. It is not dangerous to exceed XMax by a small amount. However the Xlim or XDamage (12.5mm) [url="https://flic.kr/p/R8Gr7e"][/url][url="https://flic.kr/p/R8Gr7e"]Kappalite3012HO Cone excursion 400W[/url] by [url="https://www.flickr.com/photos/149986878@N08/"]chienmortbb[/url], on Flickr [/quote] OK Tea break again So.... our computer model shows a typical curve which pretty much applies to any ported cab. Which isn't saying sealed cabs have no problems by the way. Cone movement increases as the frequencies go lower but the port controls any over excursion at the tuning frequency and gives you an extra 3db of bass. The problem for the cab is that there then isn't much to control the cone's movement below the port's area of operation. Below 40Hz or bottom E in this cab and at this power the speaker is at risk. +/- 9.5mm or 19mm of travel doesn't leave a lot of room for error. You won't destroy your speaker instantly but unless your the sort of wierdo like me that does calculations in your head during a gig it's a worry you don't want. So, what can you do about it? Well all the trouble is caused by too much power, so turning down is an option, turning down 3dB will halve your excursion but only be a little quieter. Better still add an extra speaker. With a solid state amp that will give you an extra 6db or thereabouts, that reduces your excursion to a quarter. Actually if the speakers run cooler you won't have that thermal compression effect either and your amp won't have to work so hard. Looking at the graph it's plain to see that all the nastiness is below 40Hz, If you don't know the frequency response of your amp it may not be filtering that out so get a high pass filter. We don't really hear most of the subsonic stuff so it won't make as much difference as you expect. Watch your tone controls. If you have a traditional bass/middle/treble set up then they usually give you about 12dB of boost. Just turning it up a notch to 2 o'clock will probably double your excursion below 40Hz. fine if you are bubbling along at 100W, not so good if you are already caning it. If you turn down by a notch of course you will halve your excursion. If I turn up to a venue with justone speaker and it needs a lot more volume than I expected that's what I'll do. Watch any octavers too, they may have subsonic filters in but you really don't want to boost the output down there without complete confidence in your rig. Push your rig into a corner or at least against the back wall, the reinforcement from each surface will give you an extra 3db in the bottom octave and you can then cut bass but retain as much of your tone as possible. Tea break over, I'm bound to have forgotten something so I'll wait and see what people add and then update that second post to save anyone from having to read the whole thread through.

I'm another who thinks that if the audience enjoy it then it's a good song but my heart sinks if the band want to do Seven Nation Army especially as they think they are doing you a favour with such a 'great bass line'. Never had the heart to tell them.

i used my Hartke HA3500 for the first time in ages on Saturday for a gig in a really difficult hall. I'd forgotten how useful that graphic can be, and what a nice sound it makes. I'm afraid it is nicer than my LM Tube, it just is.