Phil Starr

Does anyone have any experience of these? Genzler 12-3 Bass Array https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItMtFGlKjoo I've been toying with the idea of using 3" mid high units for bass for a while. As most of you know conventional bass drivers start to beam at relatively low frequencies and most horns only operate at frequencies too high to be much use for bass. The problem is that most of the 3" wide range drivers used for line source PA are too insensitive to be easily adapted for bass use, I'd come to the point where I'd settled on four in line to up the efficiency and chosen the Faital as the most promising unit. Seems someone was way ahead of me. If you aren't a techie think of this as being like one of those Bose PA's with the long thin bit fixed in front of the sub. It promises a full range frequency response and a broad flat projection of the upper frequencies even when you aren't in line with your speaker. I'd love to hear what anyone who has used one thinks.

All the advice is right so far and I wouldn't doubt Ashdown, nice to see you on here guys Always helpful people I find. It's possible that someone has replaced the drivers at some stage I guess, 8ohm drivers are the most commonly available which will give you a 4ohm cab. you need to check before you proceed. If you have access to a meter than any resistance above about 5ohms would indicate an 8ohm cab. The impedance is always a little higher than the DC resistance. Alternatively you might be able to take the speakers out and they may have the impedance marked on the back of the magnet. If they are 8's and you always want to use the two cabs together the series route is the one to go for. I'd imagine though that your 4x10 is going to be loud enough for most things.

[quote name='Passinwind' timestamp='1493225579' post='3286733'] True that, but this thread isn't about Nancy's Johnson's needs and wants, it's about how the rest of us make it work with one small cab. Or at least the part I answered is. [/quote]Hi Charlie, loving your amp designs and can't wait to hear John's (chienmortbb) combo when it's finished. It's a shame in a way that there has been a little more heat than light so far. I think there is a general trend towards lightweight single driver cabs in bass amplification and lots of people fear that the cabs generally won';t have enough oomph. There's a lot of advertising hype from manufacturers too and unless you have a technical mind it's difficult to separate the fluff from the genuine claim. I hope it helps when those of us who do understand the technical side of things and who aren't selling anything pitch in. I don't really apologise for introducing decibels either. If someone is asking if the bass can be as loud as the drums then the decibels are pretty much the starting point. Without that you just have to choose your expert and take it on trust, with measurements you can check what is being said. Decibels aren't difficult either 1dB louder is the minimum increase you'll notice, 3dB louder is tweaking the volume up a notch and 10dB extra is double the volume. Drummers produce around 100-103dB at their own ears on average. That's roughly a metre away from from the bits they are hitting, so if your bass amp can produce around that level it's going to be able to match the drums. The trouble is that this is an average for the drums, your bass amp is limited by it's peak output. For a typical 12" speaker that's going to be around 120-123dB at frequencies above 100Hz. Now drums are especially dynamic so a really hard strike is going to be louder than 123dB but all that means is that some drum beats are going to be heard over the rest of the band. Well, what a surprise! Without going too technical my belief is that if the bass can play 20dB louder than the average sound level of the drums it's going to be able to match the drums. That means that if all I'm saying is true half of the 12" speakers around can get to this level above 100Hz. There's an extra bit though, below 100Hz is the real deep bass, here the problem is that the output is limited by the amount of air the speaker can shift, and for a 12" speaker that's about how far backwards and forwards it can move without breaking. That's the real innovation that has come in. To do this successfully you need bigger magnets ( well more powerful anyway) You can do this with a very large conventional magnet but that defeats the lightweight advantage you are trying to achieve or you can use a stronger magnet material, Neodymium. This gives you an extra few dB of bass, so long as you use one of the new long throw bass drivers. In my opinion this is pushing up against what is possible, not every design is going to be equally successful, you certainly would have to be careful boosting the bass by 3dB with a single 12 but yes, it is technically possible to do most of your gigs with a single 12. My experience is that the theory holds true, I do most of my pub gigs with a single 12 and use a second one in the larger venues. None of this means that there is only one way of doing things, or that you'll get the sound you want this way, if you love your Ampeg then stick with it but with a well designed lightweight you can be loud enough, and the audience probably won't notice.

That's not fair, you didn't tell us that bit. If you're lending it to other bass players it can't be big enough.

The J Retro is great, pretty much keeps the character but somehow tightens everything up. I fitted one only as a lazy way of fitting a pan pot instead of the VVT set up but loved what it did for the sound and the fact that I now don't need to visit my amp all night as I only need to tweak the tones on the bass.

The ME 15-200 was at the cheaper end of the Eminence range and dates back to the 1980's. The specs i have are. Power Handling 200W response 45-5000 200W fs 46Hz Vas 224 l Qts 0.67 Sensitivity 99dB/W it had a fairly small magnet and lightweight cone, I wouldn't imagine excursion is up to much given its high sensitivity and I used to blow the ME series fairly frequently, given it' s age I'd look for something else. The Eminence Beta 15 is probably fairly close although a better speaker. You'd be better off giving us the details of the cab sizes and we can suggest speakers that are a good match rather than trying to do a like for like substitution with speakers that probably weren't original anyway. It's easy to make the cabs sound fairly good but they won't sound like the original drivers.

Welcome, if you have GAS then avoid Mansons. I'd sworn Fender were overpriced and trading on the brand until I dropped in, tried a Highway One Jazz and fell in love. Still my favourite to play

Sorry Stevie I was just about to use the car analogy I don't think I can stop myself..... Sure buying any 1litre car as Alex suggested is going to leave you short of power but going out and buying a 1.4 Golf is going to let you cruise the motorway at 70 in reasonable comfort, and carry four people when you want. It's a perfectly functional way of getting around for most of us. Of course other 1.4 litre petrol cars are available which will do service equally well, and a few people will genuinely need a bigger vehicle or perhaps 4 wheel drive or whatever. Equally some people just want something more interesting and stylish than a Golf. Volkswagen will tell you the Golf is the best in its class but in reality there are other cars which cost similar amounts that do some things better and others less well and it comes down to personal choice. Nobody seriously thinks that a new car nowadays isn't going to be fuel injected do they? My position is that just as most of us (80%???) could get by with a mid priced family car most bassists could get by with a decent 1x12. That doesn't mean they should or that other choices wouldn't suit them better. FWIW I thought NJ's original post was a perfectly sensible start to a discussion we've had a hundred times before.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1493119438' post='3285722'] There's a spectacular amount of misunderstanding in this thread!!! [/quote] Hi Alex, I agree and I'm obviously as guilty as anyone, I thought you were singling out my comment that 80% of people would be fine with a decent 1x12 as that was the only quote in your previous post. I still think it's true that something like the Super Compact would be enough for 80% of bassists by the way but I'll defend that position later.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1493031843' post='3284917'] I completely disagree with this. It's like saying that 80% of cars are fine with a 1 litre engine. It totally depends on the specifics of that engine. Give it direct injection, sequential turbocharging and hybrid assistance and properly optimise it and yes, you can get hundreds of horsepower and a good working torque curve. Get it straight out of an old Austin Metro and watch most of the 80% drive it to the scrap yard instead of their gig. Paul/Nancy - aren't you just using a single 15"? [/quote] That's a surprise Alex, since the cab he mentioned as 'how the hell do you cope' was one of yours! I was really addressing the OP's post and by saying 'decent single 12' I thought I'd made it clear I was talking about the Barefaced mentioned and a lot of others that utilise the best of modern driver design to enable us to go out with much reduced kit in terms of weight and speaker acreage. I was specifically referring to your single 12's because the OP referred to them and saying that the claims made for your speakers are perfectly reasonable in terms of the technology. There's no magic just good use of technology. In saying you 'completely disagree' I assume you are telling everyone that a single Barefaced 12 isn't enough to keep up with the band for 80% of bassists. Is that what you are saying?

I'm not going to recommend that particular box only because it isn't something I recognise as a brand but it has a link out and a 30dB pad (the pad reduces the signal by 30dB, so it's there to reduce the signal from a speaker down to a few thousandths of a volt) It is designed so you can insert it into the speaker chain reconnect your speaker and take the reduced output to the mixing desk. Most DI boxes do just this with either a 30dB or a 40dB pad which someone else mentioned. Loads of passive and active DI's to choose from. You should be able to use this with confidence, just read the instructions. If not then your alternative is to go the Sansamp/V amp route, loads of choices there too.

[quote name='SisterAbdullahX' timestamp='1492986043' post='3284689'] Simply that. Does anyone on here play pubs but not play the same old tired Classic Rock covers? Been finding that my usual staple of function gigs has steadily dwindled over the last few years to the point where I'm getting fewer than ten a year and could quite fancy packing them in altogether and just finding a nice local pub band to play for the enjoyment of it rather than having to entertain drunken wedding guests. However, the prospect of having to go and play all the standard rock tunes makes me think I'd probably just rather sell all my gear and pack in altogether! Does anyone play covers that aren't well known at all and still get a favourable response from the audience and get rebooked? Seems to me that, even if you don't play the rock stuff you still have to play well known songs, whatever the style of music you play, and that just bores me. Also, all the other bands that play that style of music play the same tunes! [/quote] I think you've summed up the situation really well and herein lies the problem. Too many music pubs are run by people who can't see beyond the genre of their own youth. they only book classic rock so that's what aspiring musicians see gets the bookings. The only thing on offer is Classic Rock so only those people who like Classic Rock go to pub gigs and others avoid those pubs, their turnover suffers so eventually they close. The truth is that only a small fraction of the public want live music in their pubs and only a small fraction of those want Rock as their only diet. The only way to grow the market as a whole is to offer more variety, the alternative is to let Pub Rock wither. All the audience want is to be entertained, to see a bit of a show. I don't think they are that bothered about what the music is in the main. They want to sing along, dance, maybe interact with the band a little, have as drink and a good time with a bit of atmosphere. People who really go for the music will be more likely to go to the bigger venues to see bands they know or to the few brave places that still put on bands doing original music. If you want people to dance and sing then you need to play stuff the majority know. That's tens of thousands of songs over my lifetime with hundreds being added every year. If you want them to dance then your music just needs to have a predictable rhythm the audience are comfortable with. To give them a good feeling you just need to show you enjoy what you do and reach out to them in some way. There's no real excuse for us all playing the same songs over and over again. To get bookings you need a recognisable identity be that genre or era (60's, 00's, whatever). The better pubs have realised that and are trying to serve up a variety. As well as playing the pubs I love live bands, I'm a 60something old bloke that grew up with all the classic rock bands. If there's a weekend when I'm not playing then I try to catch a band if I can but why would I see a classic rock band? I've heard every song they play a hundred times before, they are great songs but constant repetition has killed them for me. So so long as you can make it make sense to the audience, give them a little of what they want and sell the rest to them so they have a good evening out I don't think you'll have trouble getting repeat bookings whatever you do.Pub bands are in the entertainment business not the creative one but there are a hell of a lot of great songs rarely played and any number of ways of playing them. Your days of playing pubs are only over if you want them to be.

It's pretty hard to generalise mainly because we all eq differently and go for different tones. All the power is concentrated in the bottom octave or two but most of the sound comes from the higher frequencies. But, if you go for a fairly flat eq this is how I reckon it works. A decent single 12" speaker will handle around 300W over most of it's frequency range and probably have an efficiency of around 96dB/W so from around 100Hz upwards it'll produce 120dB or thereabouts. That's pretty much going to match the output from the drums. It's also going to produce peaks of around 100dB at the vocal mics so they are going to pick up quite a lot of bass and make all sorts of problems for the vocals. There's no point in being louder than this with backline and most bands will improve their overall sound by reigning back from that point and putting stuff through the PA at the bigger venues. That's kind of marginal though, a particularly monstrous drummer with heavy sticks and a big kit combined with a band where the vocals take second place might push past this point and any bass boost is going to challenge the speaker at the bottom end. My guess is that for 80% of us a single 12 will just about do everything you need form backline. Boost the bass at all though and that speaker is going to struggle. Just a small bass boost is going to double the power demand so the few people who find these tiny speakers are not enough aren't wrong, they are just doing things differently. For the rest of us why carry more than you need?

Why not just buy a PA power amp. You might find one with a sensitivity high enough to drive direct or you could add a simple pre amp just to boost output an active DI might well give you enough. I have to say my best sound ever was using a simple PA amp with no tone controls, but that had mic level inputs.

I was going to suggest a Peavey 1x15 but again I suspect they are too big. How about a 2x10, most old Peavey stuff is more or less valueless but is reliable and sounds good at the expense of great weight. My 1x15 has done sterling service as a sit and forget occupant of just such a man cave.

[quote name='lowdowner' timestamp='1492717969' post='3282720'] Looking at some new dots today (see http://basslessons.be/transcriptions.php?i=94 for a current example) and it started me wondering how long it took people to learn a new track in readiness for performance? I realise this depends on the complexity of the track but in the case of Doobie Brothers "Long Train Runnin'" what do you reckon? 2 hours of effort, 8? 16? Is this a 'how long is a piece of string?' question? [/quote]this feels like taking my clothes off in public but if like me you are an 'intermediate' player you'll be very depressed by some of these answers, it takes me longer than this and from some of the conversations I have with other bassists and gigging bands I'm not totally alone in this. To give some context I've been involved in three start up bands and I'd reckon to learn three or four songs a week depending upon complexity spending about two or three hours most evenings working on them. They'll be all I listen to in the car whilst I'm learning them and I'll use every cheat I can (You Tube, tab,etc.) to get there. Like all the pro's here I won't gig unless I'm 100%. In all I've found it takes about twelve weeks to get a two hour set together from scratch. The other thing no one has mentioned is genre. So far I've played modern pop, indie, 70's Rock, glam rock, 80's rock, each tends to have its own little tricks and it can take a while to get your head round new stylistic things. That slows you down, or maybe it's just me Apart from that the pattern is pretty much what other people describe, breaking it down into parts, concentrating on structure and listen listen listen. No song has beaten me yet but I've taken a month to learn the more stretching ones and as soon as you get quicker at learning you inevitably end up being given something even more challenging to learn.

Good to hear, I've been planning to design and build a filter like this myself for years but I'm thinking of accepting how slow/lazy I am and biting the bullet on buying one. Technically they just make so much sense.

[quote name='redbandit599' timestamp='1492808926' post='3283465'] Well, I'm 49 you know... [/quote]Haha your kids must be around the same age as mine. It's already a set I'd go to see. Run. Snow Patrol Bang Bang Dirty Pretty Things Monster The Automatic

I feel the Brigs pain. I split with a band just over a year ago over just this, well for me. They got fed up with my nagging, probably with good reason. The down side was that it was a regularly gigging band and a lot of fun. My conclusion is that it wasn't laziness per se, just acomplete lack of self awareness. At rehearsals they were always really enthusiastic but glossed over mistakes, didn't want to discuss anything in detail, like how many bars there were in a line. what the actual chord was or on some occasions what the time signature was, tricky with the drums I thought. At the end of rehearsal and in the two days after they would get hyper enthusiastic and come up with four new songs for next week. Dozens of suggestions would be thrown out in the next couple of days. Somehow they would never find the time to learn the new songs. If you were lucky each would have had time to learn one but wih no communication they would turn up having learned different songs. We'd end up playing the originals in the rehearsal room or just running through our set yet again. The enthusiasm reigned supreme, 'sixty new songs by the end of the year' but we got to August and had only gigged one new song not on our NYE set list. I could go on but all the things in everything thebrig has talked about happened to us. In the end the guitarist who did learn his stuff at home and I tried to put some order in it but they could not change and in the end I was the villain of the piece and was pushed out after a big row. My point, if there is one is you have to balance being in a band with good people against the possibility you won't find better. They won't change because their world view and self image is different from yours. You have to decide to chill and go with it or leave. Apparently I'm not a chilled person. So yes, they should learn their stuff at home and practice before rehearsing, but they never will. You just have to decide if you can live with that.

I've had the chance to play with this a couple of times, as did a few people at the South West Bash. Never played a fretless before so I'm not the best judge but it feels just right in your hands, the neck is a lovely thing and the photo's really don't do it justice.

Honestly it's not a thing to worry about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td6m_ukCu0A

If you are looking at the Mk 1 on here then I've deliberately designed it to need as few tools as possible. You only really need a screwdriver, an electric drill, something to cut out the speaker hole (jigsaw or router). A hand saw might be useful if you don't get everything cut to size exactly. The only specialist thing you need is a 70mm holesaw for the ports http://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-bi-metal-holesaw-70mm/80934?kpid=80934&cm_mmc=Google-_-Product%2520Listing%2520Ads-_-Sales%2520Tracking-_-sales%2520tracking%2520url&gclid=CMHK3cWCn9MCFcYp0wodJnoJsg&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CKeYoceCn9MCFaIx0wodNTwPDg which you can drive using your drill. We've only recommended the Beyma SM212 and the Eminence Beta12A2 for the design and the Kappalite 3012HO if you want a lightweight driver. Other drivers are suitable of course but we haven't tried them and haven't found anything cheaper so far. We're happy to advise anyone if they do come up with an alternative.

6V6 is right, you can't really 'service' an amp. Servicing is really about changing lubrication and filters and examining moving parts, none of which really applies to an amp. You could argue a valve change as a 'service' as they do wear over time and sometimes the bias on a valve amp will need to be tweaked but for a solid state amp save your money.

There are good technical reasons why valve amps are popular, it's to do with the way they distort when overloaded mainly. It's a much nicer sound than that of an overloaded solid state amp. In turn that is to do with the nature of the whole output stage including the transformer you have to have with a valve output stage. The effects of valves in the pre amp stages are much less pronounced but I wouldn't deny they are there, just not a way of emulating a valved output stage. Essentially you'd expect a solid state pre amp to be better behaved than a valve one, less distorted. I suspect though the essential differences in a valve pre amp are down to a mixture of luck and careful design, a good design is a good design IMO independently of whether it is solid state, digital or valve. FWIW my two amps both have valve and solid state pre amps. I've a Hartke 3500 and a MB Tube 500. I use the Hartke mainly on solid state and the MB with all valve and no solid state. I just set up the tone I like best. I honestly don't think just because you like one valve pre amp you are going to like every amp with one, you've still got to listen and choose with your ears.

[quote name='Paul S' timestamp='1491665561' post='3274663'] My car radio, car stereo speakers, all the car electrics are fitted in my car year round - why would bass amps/electrics/cabs be any different? [/quote] I know that the cones of car speakers are designed to be water resistant, I'd suspect the electronics are too. Many PA speakers nowadays are also water resistant to an extent but I've no idea which, if any, bass gear is. For example a lot of old Trace gear was made of MDF which will absorb moisture and swell. The trouble for all of us answering a question like this is that the real answer is 'it depends'. We none of us know what the garage/shed is really like or what gear is being stored. There's also the problem of knowing what level of risk is acceptable. Most of the gear in most garages will be OK, but how do we feel about a 25%chance of it being damaged? In the end the OP has to decide .