JTUK

^ Control issue. If there is a band leader, then he needs to tell you want is going on as it sounds contrary to what was agreed. Gtr 2 has gotten wind of the original decision and addressed his issues ...which is kind of good as he 'may' have learned but at the very least you should all tell 'band leader' that any time the gtr reverts to his old position he is defo out. Unless that happens, you should walk, but it depends how much you want to stay in the band as to whether you'll stick to that. Don't really see how 2 gtrs and keys work unless gtrs and keys are VERY sorted.

Would look more into the 1st ad, wouldn't bother with the seond. Local knowledge would help here as I have no idea what the ageny/agencies are like, what the local scene is and what those gigs are..? Around here everyone is doing a beer festival but only a few do things properly ( IMO ) and hire in the stages and P.A/lights so these are chalk and cheese compared to a gazebo in the beer garden. So, the general description goes a LONG way and so you have to look between the lines. The same applies to the ad, baring in mind that they aren't going to undersell themslves but how much have they 'embellished'...???

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1409818571' post='2543555'] This is the 15-minute talk I did at the South Coast Bass Bash on 31st August. I will probably be doing an expanded version of this at the South East Bass Bash in November, if there's enough interest. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bakDMyALGt0[/media] Expecting to feel better by sitting at a desk and watching this is about as smart as hoping to lose weight by reading a diet recipe. Stand up and give it a go. Try this routine in the safety and comfort of your own home, preferably just before you pick up your bass. Enjoy. [/quote] My familiy has always had a history of varicose veins..which I didn't get, but I have always been aware of how I stand. It wouldn't occur to me that people would favour one leg over another to stand on... that sounds like a heap load of trouble in store. Sure, be body aware...

The weight isn't the whole problem, .... for me, it would have to compete with the Aguilar DB at that price ( and weight ) and that is a very TALL order.

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1409769405' post='2543180'] That's because the Jazz does a lot of sounds. [/quote] Does indeed and they are all 'classic' The 3 sounds I go for in a jazz..and you wont get them all off the same bass, are Marcus Miller slap tone. Jaco rear pickup and then modern vintage...which comes from the late 60/70's type basses which Fender have started to replicate again.

Whilst I haven't taken a lot of time on new Fenders as I am just not in the market, the one that has caught my eye is the American Deluxe J5. Failing that and a bit of a price break, I'd include Lakland but I've found the sound just a little weak, so keep an eye out for one that has a pre installed... Of course, it also depends what pre, but I think you could look at active Laklands for £800-ish and the Deluxes from £1k...S/H

That top is in very good condition...how old?

A freakin' Gibson bass...???

I'm a fan of Yamahas for the pricepoint but you are comparing Apples with Oranges if the Wharfedales only go to an acoustic act. The Yamahas will cope with a very loud band and the vocals will stay focused even with kick, gtrs and keys in altho their backline do most of that work. We use a Wharfedale wedge and it does ok but nowhere near the quality of the Yamahas. The problem we have found with the Yamahas wasn't exactly their fault, it was the Mackie/Behringer mixer but that would always apply, IMO.

Mixing bass and drums is simple.... and I don't understand how one can obliterate the other in terms of sound. You'd have to terminally stupid and dense to allow that to happen. The kit will project and you just have to turn up the bass to match it. If you can't hear certain notes which will be the higher register, you'll EQ those in. What will spoil this simple transaction is the gtr. If they are oblivious to their sound against yours in terms of frequency occupied then you'll never get a sound until you have deucated the gtr/gtrs or sacked them. Some bass rigs will knock down walls from a distance so you need to be aware of how your rig travels, but after a certain distance away from the stage area you can't cater for that. Simple test for a mix. Drum plays a straight beat at normal verse volumes. Bass joins in and you can hear both instruments fine. Try something fiddly up top if that is your thing and you still want it to come over the drums. Play a chugging 8 beat pattern and gtr joins in with bass and drums. If, at this point you can't pick out the bass outfront, apart from knowing it is there, you are losing the mix. Go back and take bass of gtr amp, or when you have given up on this after the umpteen attempt, sack gtrs off.. Repeat until you get one who has less bass on their sound that you do... I'll wager the number of bands who fail this simple test is high... and it doesn't help if the bass enters into the spirit of things and turns up and that leaves the drummer having the beat his kit up to be jheard. General rule, a screaming 50w gtr amp is going to be able get TOO loud, too easily, so the less watts they can run with the better. Don't ever let keys play chugging patters or riffs, give them nice sexy chords, or better still, let them educate you with nice sexy chords and find a place for them in your songs..

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1409697298' post='2542480'] It is live in the studio... at the moment it is being played is live...bleed is bleed, running a lead from the keys to the PA, mic'ing a guitar amp but keeping them low in the mix is just keeping them low in the mix, if they are lower than the signal going in via the SM58s as actual bleed (nothing to do with a studio term, it is still bleed) then you are not gaining anything and if the signal from the keys/guitar is higher than the vocal mic bleed signal then it is no different to what we all do and you mix the levels accordingly. Like I said before that is not bleed it is just putting a bit of keys/guitar in the FOH mix, barring any gig where all the players are in separate closed rooms it is what every band in the world does isnt it? I get what you are saying JTUK, you are putting into the PA what the mics would collect anyway, you can control the gain level to give more than the mics out front but unless you are doing something to stop the actual bleed you still cant reduce the amount of gain can you? [/quote] Forget the SM58's... they are often close enough on the stage that they do get the overall band volume into the mic, which is why we use a 58 OH. The keys are direct in and the gtr has a 57 or equivalent but never a 58. There will be overspill into the Vox mics but that is the deal with 58's. Our sound is enhanced with the gtr and keys signals plus a mic or two on the kit. This gives an sound enhancement into the P.A but isn't the sole or main source. This is the same thing you are doing with overspill but the only difference is that the close attention of the signal is more controlled. I don't think bleed is a bad thing anyway, especially as you might not have the area to control it so you work with it, not against. There is no way the P.A we have could do the job that the backline does so we combine both to give a loud and pokey mix. In smaller places we have one of the better sounds around, so it works for us. Bleed is a pretty vague term so I'll use it in this context as it achieves exactly the same result.

Yep, but we are talking about Live...and since the signal is not the main signal, it achieves the same sort of thing. Only this time we mean to have it there. Many studios go with their defintions of bleed on the track as they want to record live for a better feel...or that is the goal. Overspill in this instance now becomes a factor so it has to be manageable. So, now you learn to use it as it would be too hard/costly/PITA to limit. That is what we are doing...using it as it is going to be there anyway...esp if you use bloody SM58 as vox mics.

Sounds good, but generally a dep, IMO means you have never met the band until the gig and you have either dots or charts to work from or the set is so buskable you do it all by ear and a few notes. But, sure, it should give you confidence to do things with the minimum of preperation.... or not enough and it should also be good training for your ear, so once you know where the songs goes in your head you can hear the changes and go to them. If they aren't obvious where they are coming, then a visual cue will do...

Strictly speaking yes, but the effect is the same. It isn't overspill into a mic as the keys are direct and the gtr is close mic'd but we only want a little of the sound, as it is to embellish the main backline sound which does the bulk of the work. This saves the P.A getting a caining. Depends how many ppl there are in the room and the size of it depends how big the P.A needs to be but we only have 3k in modern active terms. You'd think that would be enough, but there isn't much left in that if we gun it hard. You can get 1000w 12" tops but you have to be reasonable with the work you give it to do.

Bleed is a slight signal of the instrument and also overspill, but aren't using it for overspill on gtrs and keys. The backline does most of the work, but we also re-enforce that with a little of that instrument in the P.A. This is so it doesn't get into a major fight with the Vox in the P.A. If you are talking about a 1k P.A with subs, you will have pretty inefficient cabs, and simplistically 250w or so per cab. This CAN'T take a full signal and do all the work, IMO, so that is why you run the backline to do the bulk and bleed a signal into the P.A. The bass player will have something like 300w on tap... and the drums are going to be acoustically loud so a P.A of that size needs all the help it can get. The vox remain the paramount signal into the P.A. We have found the best way to run the band pretty loud from the back and slightly re-enforce the keys and gtr for ley parts. Of course, you need to self mix sensibly and you need to have all your core sounds sorted so they mix/layer well. That way you aren't getting into prolonged EQ'ing..as you basically just need the correct level. Drums are harder but if your drummer knows how to tune his kit, it is basically the position of the mic that needs sorting. Same with the O/H..and for that we may use a SM58 as it will pick up a lot of the top of the kit as well.

We find more value in a song choosing session and from that we may well have a few instruments there to run through some chords. This might determine whether the song has legs for us. When we have a body of work, we may decide a rehearsal is in order but we will need to have budgeted for it as we will incur exes for the studio and petrol, so have to keep them to a minimum and maximise the returns. But apart from 5 originals which we've just recorded, we need about another 5-10 songs to totally refresh the set. Although we have kept a few numbers going from the start, it will be good if we totally revamp the set so we are like a new band in terms of songs. There is nothing worse than regular 'fans' being able to predict what number you will do next ..and basically guess the set, IMO.

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1409647164' post='2541750'] Agree with JT above, but...Engineer or not out front, that backline still needs to be balanced and nobody onstage has the faintest idea how it sounds out front using either method. I prefer everything in the P.A, and have steered my bands equipment that way with a slightly larger P.A, but less backline. As an engineer, I want more control over FOH levels, and that means quieter backline, I did a 5 band festi type gig last week and the biggest problem was the massive Ampeg rig all the bassists loved playing through, but I couldn't balance the mix, because whatever I did, there was simply too much bass guitar. it was very very loud, and asking, then telling the bassist to turn it down to acceptable levels got the stock phrase "but I can hardly hear it now",to which I replied, yes, but then you can hardly hear anything now because you've just had that thing on full a couple of feet away. So my theory is, balancing the rig when that DOESN'T involve telling someone the volume they just got used to onstage is too loud,ie:(pulling a fader on the FOH mixer) is a far easier option. I also find it next to impossible to get a decent vocal monitor setup when you have to compete with a backline that's being used to fill the venue, yet is only a meter away. When the band know everything is in the P.A, they are a lot more relaxed about "being heard in the mix,man". Having said all that, many people get great results using JTs method, and save the P.A for the vox. [/quote] Funnily enough our best sound gigs, by common consent have been in pubs with full P.A. The only one who doesn't get to go thru the P.A is me as the Bass so I tend to have to take a pokey rig. Our problem is the keys as they push the volume up and there is a battle with the vox monitoring. Out front it is ok... but the vocalist has to push his voice hard. This is not good vocally long term, at all. We have been using a dep key for the last few gigs and the 'stage' sound is quieter ... but also he hasn't been able to get out front much as we have no reference of how loud he is. All my Zoom recording of gigs have been a simple affair of position, set-up and go and we do FAR better with our method that we have with the last few Engr'd jobs. This I find odd... but unfortunately, on the evidence of the recordings AND hearsay. I do firmly believe that our 'engr'd lash-up has produced better results. The P.A's we have sued have been Nexo/engr'd. EAW/engr'd.EV/engr'd and RCF/EV/engr'd. Our P.A ( QSC/RCF/Yamaha ) would not have been man enough to do those gigs anyway. Our default mic-up is Gtr and Key bleed, Kick and O/H but we may add a snare mic depending on the stage size and Vox plus 2 BV's. I am stating how it is not how I want it to be.... but we do get compliments on our sound but it takes the gtr to be vigilant with the levels. The stage sound is mixed so I fit with the kit, and the gtr and keys are layered. We hear everything and mix from the backline. It works... not a perfect way of doing it but it keeps the exes down and we are known for a very good sound, but that seems to get lost when we are engr'd with a hired-in P.A. What that says about the engrs and P.A ... ???

We are known for a good sound and we let the backline do the bulk of the work. We get the vox right up and out front and then we take bleeds. We aren't a quiet band but we will have keys and gtr and kick and OH thru the P.A if the P.A rig is man enough. Nothing is going to need to get in the way of the vox and it needs constant attention to any volume creep. This is why we keep the gtr and keys down to bleeds whilst the backline does the grunt. That way, the P.A is less liable to be over run. To run a mix outfront you need an engr out front and if you don't have one you are chancing a lot to luck and you can't changes when they need to be made. If you get it wrong..the chances are it will stay wrong for the whole gig or half time. If you run kick and keys, they will end up in the tops as well if you have a typical x-over of around 120. This can work the tops hard to the detriment of the vox, IMO. How you start and sound check and how to end up volume-wise takes a LOT of discipline and control and frnaky that is beyond most drumers and gtrs ..at the very least.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1409599375' post='2541411'] 2 Mackie subs are more than capable of taking some bass guitar at pub volume, why will the voacls be going down there, are they a Barry White tribute show? I am saying in with that PA [/quote] How much bass do you think will be solely in the subs...? you will get some in the tops for sure and that will be asking a lot of those tops.

Out...the P.A isn't man enough to handle full bass...so I wouldn't even bother with a bass bleed. You'll not gain anything and you could possibly compromise the Vox and other signals.

Use small racks and anything over 4 units is getting weightier and you'll need a good case that wont break over time, ie not plastic/cheap. They flex as well as they generally aren't too rigid,. thast helps break them. I use 3u with a 2u amp and 1u tuner. Light enough at ariound 25lbs all in, and 2 plugs into a 4way into a trip plug. or 1 3u rack ..very heavy in wooden manufacturers case, out into the trip plug and a feed out into a portable handheld tuner. 2 cab cables and a plug board to plug in so not complicated or time consuming

I found I was using an amp with Timbre/enhance type maps, so I decided to get a balls-out amp with guts as I know my basses sound good so all I am really looking to do is project that core sound and I don't need masses of EQ to do that. I have the pre on the bass as well to help out but mostly that stays as is for most gigs. Most of my gigs are volume level and about a minute max a the sound check to see/hear what is coming out that I like. I may well pick the bass that speaks best in that situation as I carry two, but I don't need to go chasing a sound and if you do, you are starting from the wrong place anyway. IMO. Your stage sound should be an extention of your 'home practice' sound.

[quote name='Mickeyboro' timestamp='1409577434' post='2541042'] The original concept was 'donate, or pour ice over yourself'. It changed to both from either/or, to satisfy the Facebook generation's self-centredness! I played a gig for Macmillan last weekend and put something in the bucket (collecting, not ice!) … which, at my advanced age, is probably more dignified, not to mention effective. [/quote] Donate...run out of people to nominate

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1409586268' post='2541198'] That's happened before - it works fine on my iMac, Macbook, ipad & iPhone! Maybe it's optimised for Apple devices, lol. [/quote] I've tried IE8 and Chrome from XP... but fine from Android..

And to get a band to travel for a wedding, you are going to be looking at big money, IMO.