JTUK

For vox only... you basically just need to EQ the voice reasonably but it helps if the singer knows what makes his voice sound good. The trick to a good band sound, IMO, is to start with good core sounds per man, and that way you are just sorting levels ..which is way easier and QUICKER than trying to EQ the thing. The bigger problem, IME, is who do you get to learn from as a man with a P.A for hire may not be the best reference. Out of all the P.A's we might hire during a year, we get a result from about 50% of them or less, and the reason I feel able to say that is that I record all our gigs and the best recordings are ALL with our own self monitored P.A.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416256359' post='2608424'] ................. I say "I could argue" because frankly I don't really care about any of it. I'm not aiming for rock stardom and had figured that out a while ago now. I just want to play a few original songs to a live audience who don't walk out and sometimes even tap their feet or get up and dance. Just for my own gratification. So far, so good. [/quote] I'm not aiming at rock stardom either...by the time I got good enough...or thought I could do it, I was past it.. Having said that... sometimes you just need to go for it if you think it fits, but scratching around trying to earn £20K plus, having to take each and every gig would see me off in no time. But...... that doesn't mean I just play at it. I try to make it as good as I can as that way I enjoy it more. This drives me on and the constant search can be tiring but have I sold out... I don't think so, and neither have I settled. The day I do that, I'll give up playing. It isn't so much a crusade, it is just the willingness to push on and still work on things. I quit for a few years and it wasn't until I came back refreshed that I realised how much I'd been coasting and just going thru the motions. I am a much better player now and I also know what has to work for me to remain interested. I've put the time in, I'll be paid because I know I'll a good job. If someone wont pay that, then thats their choice, I'm not desperate enough to put the price down so in that sense, I haven't sold out either. Finally, I'll do originals when the songs are good enough to go in the set. I think we would have at least 5 for the summer and our price goes up in the new year.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416232335' post='2608105'] Well, we could discuss 'good' until the cows come home, but I take your basic point. .................... So yes, I guess 'good' is all relative and there is a wide spectrum, but I seriously doubt that 'good' can be measured by something as crude as money. Is the band taking £50 quid each really so much better than the band playing for free or are they themselves 'no good' because they can't make £100 each and are stuck playing dingy pubs instead of more prestigious corporate gigs, or arenas, or stadiums? [/quote] Never an easy answer.... The easy money around here is tribute bands who can get far better gigs thru their role play than a comparable cover band. We've played with a few and no matter how we felt the gig went, we couldn't get flown to Afganistan and looked after the way they would be. By contrast they wouldn't get top billing in our enviroment, but them's the breaks. I respect pulling power as an entity, myself, so any band that can sell enough tickets or draw very well gets that from me, but I don't always concede that is a definition of good. By the same token, we might be able to afford a top notch player and they may agree to take our gig.. Why..? maybe they just need the money and will just suck it up. But when you have had a few of these players pass by, you get to know what is what if only because you may have realised that you are seriously outclassed or you consider their CV and think you handled it all well enough. The thing is, you probably don't know how good someone is until you have played with them and sometimes the best endorsement is just to be asked... Second from that is to call them and they agree to play with you. Not too many with very good CV's will take the money first and ask questions later, IME. They need to know that you aren't a total waste of time. If you have their number, you will likely have been given it by someone they know..that puts you in the same swim, ballpark as an entity they recognise, so they will probably at least hear out your gig. If they fancy it, and they are free they'll do it..possibly for £50...so you have done well to sell it to them, but if they don't fancy it, you can't buy them at any gig money you can afford. So, yes..what is 'good'..?? I think the level is that people you rate will actually play with you...but as for where is that actual line..??? who knows, it is relative.

The point about 2" horns is pertinent IMO and I think you can justify that as an option. We only changed our POV when we heard the Yamaha DXR. We now favour it over QSC but the final call is with the vocalist who prefers the Yams... If it were left to me and price wasn't also a consideration, I would have have gone for KW112, but that is not like for like as the boxes are also wood which I felt was important if top only, as they could handle kick and keys bass-wise, a bit better Since we always planned to run with a sub..we thought we could afford to lose that 'luxury' and the long warranty...maybe. RCF ART are good and pokey but you don't want to be in line with them as the horns are harsh...not sounding, but piercing. So for pubs, that isn't helpful to the audience as you don't get to choose where you can put them. They can quickly blow ears.

I have to say that I am very sceptical about free bands being any good. I can get my head around the odd gig and being worthwhile to do for free but the carrot needs to be pretty appealing.. I guess this is relative ..? No one round here any good plays for free. The bills of 'charity 'beer festivals here are full of bands willing to do it, but none of them are amongst the better bands, 9/10, IMO. I can only state what the scene is like here and I haven't seen some of your bands, but most bands know their worth here and charge accordingly. Altho, I also know one or two bands will do anything to play the headline slot of a prestigous gig and to do that, they do it for free. That is fine, there is more budget elsewhere.

This is why you need a good warranty and that costs. I think QSC have a 7 yr warranty, iirc... so that justifies them top of that particular file, IMO. Sound-wise not so much, but YMMV. I have had many conversations with shops and repairers and I can recall that JBL, HK and Mackie have all had a run of breakages, to the point that the retailer or repairer question whethere they are worth bothering with. It goes without saying that Behringer, and Fenix conponent boxes suffer as badly or worse, but then they are cheap. The problem with PV has always been the horns, tbh... but a lot of that could also be that they are hammered and hammered and the chassis are decent... so whilst you get the woofer working ok after 15 years of 'abuse', the horns distort and the band either puts up with it or is oblivious. I can honestly say if I go to see a band and they have PV tops, then I can't recall one that didn't have very distorted top end. And the first thing I note from any new band is the P.A.as this is a very good indicator about how much they care or know about sound.

Bands round here that don't add to the numbers aren't going to get called back on any sort of terms. The blues bands often have a stellar gtr but after 20 mins they have said everything they are going to say.moslty. They will work cheap..but tbh..the gig IS cheap...they rock up with minimum of gear and no lights and 12 bar all night. Not saying this never never works but it is kind of dumbing down others efforts...but then the gtr in this 3 piece probably pays himself more...so for £180..he does ok..?? But the simple fact is..IMO... no matter how good you think you are and what you think you are worth, your worth is 'determined' by how well the pub does. You can be pretty awful and the bar does £3k... so the LL knows that is either a freak event or it is unexplainable, ...it doesn't matter... he is going to want to pull that off again. You WILL be rebooked unless you really really screw it up. And by the same token you can be a great band but no one is interested and it doesn't matter to the LL that you have mortgages and the sax players has a stellar musical CV and the rest aren't at all shoddy, he is looking at his bar takings. They will determine what YOU are worth to them. Hopefully, the difference in your valuation and his wont be too far apart.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1416217244' post='2607910'] We've just been dropped by a gig. We drive between 30 and 50 miles and play 3 times a year, and no we don't bring a load of mates. The owner likes us would like us to play but says he needs to book local bands as they bring in the punters. I would argue that there aren't 20 quality local bands so he should be filling his pub with locals on a live music night anyway. ............................ [/quote] Yes... it is an intense subject and the dynamics are quite interesting to me. I don't get why some bands are popular but I can't do anything about it anyway... Quality bands is a subjective thing so not sure how tradeable that in itself is worth. IF we thought, for example, we were twice as good as band X, the market wouldn't pay us twice as much so we stick to the pubs that pay upwards of £200. We accept that one band might do £1000 or business a night and another only £300...and the band can't think that is the only bill to settle that night so of course, a good business plan would be to pay bands per average nightly takings. I can totally understand why a LL might do that, but by the same token they have to understand we don't work for £xxx. You have to walk away if you can't make the deal. I think a lot of pub work is just too dodgy myself as you end up playing all sorts of dives. Two rules for us...is it a pub that you can take your g/f to.. and by that same token would your friends go there...? The idea is of course, to grow your appeal but throwing too much mud at the wall can be soul-destroying. At the end of the day... people want a great time and will pay for that and these things are self perpetuating....IMO. The best draws around here are ska bands and I think they can get close to £400 in the right pub...but the turnout has to be almost a certainly for the LL...so the bands have probably worked up to that. Next, vintage disco's do well... After that, you are looking at the top bands and by 'top' they either have a quality others don't have, or they play exactly the right material with the right 'vibe' Sometimes, bands that have a verybig social circle do well...but come unstuck when they play out of town.. So..it takes all sorts of sorts... but it also takes time and effort on everyones part. If pubs were the only thing we did...I guess we would play them more and then I might be a lot more gloomy about them than I am...but I would say the scene is good around here. Money HAS stood still though. £300 is considered a good rate for 2x45 but more bands are getting it. Also, £250 seems to be the bottom line of most bands that are percieved as 'good'. .

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416174358' post='2607689'] I appreciate some people might want to but they don't HAVE to! I take your point - my musical hobby costs me money, I get that, but so do my other hobbies but no one subsidises them, so what makes music so different? I played a 50 minute mixed set of covers and originals today to about 60/70 people, together with 3 other bands. Admission was free, the bands were not paid, everyone had fun, it was 4 miles from home. That'll do me for this month. I'm happy. Edit: [b]I was standing exactly where I saw Norman Watt-Roy play a blinder of a gig with the Blockheads two days ago. I'm guessing he got paid, but then he is a bit better than me .[/b] . . [/quote] hmmm sounds like an acceptance of the concept to me.. Also............ anyone tried to buy a concert ticket of late..?? it seems that people will pay £20 for relatively unknowns ( in a wider sense ) for a night out. Tribute bands are charging £40... so a decent local band stands a chance at £10 a ticket IF you have a show that you don't give away for free ( £300 ) down the local too often. I put on special events for a pub type set...but geared towards a festival and we charge 3 times a pub rate. For that money I can put the players on for £100 plus a man and get in 7 or so people.. These can be amongst the best gigs of the year.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416172793' post='2607656'] Again, it's a matter of perspective. You won't play without being paid (fair enough) so will have a tendency to see people playing for free being taken advantage of by the pubs and bars where they play. However, because I play for enjoyment, I need somewhere to gig . . . so perhaps I'm the one taking advantage of a venue that will let me play there? In the UK, the pub business is dying on its feet (not because of music) and pubs are closing down at an alarming rate. If I'm happy to play for free and can tempt a few people into a local pub to listen to some live music instead of sitting at home drinking their supermarket beer while watching TV and the pub makes a bit more money as a result and can therefore remain in business, then I suggest that could be a win, win, win situation - I get to indulge my hobby, people get to hear live music in a social setting and the pub gets to stay in business. The alternative is that the pub goes bust and everyone loses. Of course, this doesn't apply to all pubs or to all bands, so happily there is room for all. But what's interesting about these regular discussions is that it's the bands trying to get paid that are the ones always moaning. The bands playing for the pure love of the music and the performance seem to be pretty chilled. So how are the 'pro' bands going to persuade the hobby bands to change their ways and take on all the apparent angst and aggravation of gigging for money? I don't think they can because they are inhabiting different worlds - not better or worse, just different. [/quote] I have always believed that relaxing the laws of music license was not going to do the musicians any good at all. It allowed too many pubs to put on music as a punt or afterthought and devalued the whole thing..IMO. It also allows too many bands out to compete. Sometimes in my town, there are 8-9 gigs on a saturday night so you can't tell me that pubs don't know the value to them... I wont play a lot of those places ...as I like to stay with my original venue picks and be fair to them and I think 2 gigs per town is enough, and also, those other pubs will cherry pick the nights so they are ad-hoc gigs, IMO. The other thing is that supermarket beer prices are kiiling the pub trade ...so I would price out drinking cheap at home.

[quote name='Damonjames' timestamp='1416171628' post='2607638'] I should state that I have no problem playing for free, my band has done several charit gigs, and will no doubt do more for worthy causes. But as far as in concerned 50-100£ more out of the till for the pub won't break the bank, but it makes a if difference to the takings of the band. It also then puts some responsibility on the venue to promote the event to ensure a good turnout. We promote the hell out if out gigs via Facebook with a 7 day countdown with a new photo for a previous gigs to try and get as many punters in as possible. But we have done a coupe of door price gigs and come away with less than we got last night! [/quote] If a pub can only afford to pay £100 or £150 then they aren't doing things right and that would be a pub to avoid as those figures give you a. no money, and b, no audience. I'd have more sympathy if that was a bottom line figure with a bonus on top when you do well, but it takes a good relationship to do that deal. There are many pubs that just aren't suitable for music anyway... they are either too small or the LL is trying everything he can to get money in but they can't expect us to believe they are so stupid they don't know the value of things. They know the value of the price of a barrel, for sure, so they will also know the value of something that sells them 200 pints. You could always try and do the economics backwards and see how many people are in the bar... ( it is a numbers game, which why small pubs and beer sales don't work ) and work out how well their music nights go. If you have 50 in a bar for 2 hrs, how many pints do they sell..ballpark..?? But............ by the same token bands have to look at themselves, if you draw 10 people, then you aren't worth anything either, in this game.

Tops only..? I'd go for something like active 12's. My faves are Yamaha DXR12 which you could get for around £1100 inc covers, stands and cables. RCF and EV make have bundles as well. These active are DSP 'rated' at around 1000w per cab and that will get your vocal over any band in context, IMO.. A 8 channel mixer should be £250 or so and the same for mics, cables and stands..depending how many sing so I'd set the top line budget at £2k...and then look at how you can chip away at that. Of course, you can get tired and hammered cheap tops for pennies, but I assue the band works and has a need for a discerning vocal sound. And any vocalist should actually be pushing for the best quality sound for his voice and the band should buy into that, IMO

As for party functions, we have priced to get into London, but even at £1500 for 2 hours, the parking, congestion charges and general all round hassle makes you think twice. If I don't clear £300..inc the P.A share, I will be VERY pissed off...so weddings and corporate pay well, but sometimes you'll earn that as well.

Our min charge is £50 per man for a pub within 25 miles. If we want to go further..and that is because the pub is worth it, We start at £10 per man fuel and we have to see the benefit of it as we can't pay kitty and P.A at those prices. We are a 5 piece and at those prices, we ARE doing it for the fun of it. We have also found you need to pick your pubs..and gigs in general otherwise you can get jaded...IME.

First of all, IMO, bands have to get used to a band P.A and whilst it is acceptable for the singer to stump up for tops... which may be all you need in some places, then the rest of the band should share the cost of subs etc .. 1st decision is what the P.A has to do within the confines of the band and how you transport it. Make no mistake... being sole owner, means THEY carry and load to and from the gigs,,so they may need a bigger car for the kit. How much is this worth to you...? How much is the sound engr charging and what does he provide and do for that..? You might find that his new rates aren't so unreasonable after all...once everything is factored in. Consider you are getting transport, roadie, and engr PLUS his kit..?? I think a NEW P.A at very good gig spec is going to be around £3k plus... and for that you'll be looking at QSC which should be a good band's benchmark.. Not an easy answer for all things to be considered, in one post. Weight, carry, power, quality, size, cost..?? As I said... I'd break down what you actually have already on the table and what it will cost you.

All the while, the Aguilar op remains in the U.S factory, then they qualify, IMO. But... watch this space..??? That is an opinion in that any global and popular maker may sell up and retire to the beach and the accountants will move to a low cost option whilst trading on the good name.

Your technique sounds like it is too hard hitting to cope with an low action... You'll have to adjust one or the other... A low action needs you to be cleaner.... and the pay-off may well be faster and more precision... but digging in HARD with a low action is not compatible, IMO. You could try and sell it to yourself as saving your hands for the future....??

I'd suggest 2 x S112's because they are defined and full of character due to the focused and clear mid range. That comes at the expense of big lows but that is the way a 12 should be, IMO. I think you could justify a visit to hear them at BassGear...

[quote name='Clarky72' timestamp='1415897122' post='2605015'] So here's my dilemna - they look great, I've seen a lot of good looking basses coming out of there. They make some lovely options and finishes, their relic/aged finishes look better than most companies. My problem is that I see more for sale second hand than anything else. The second hand market is flooded with Sandbergs. Bass Direct posts a second hand one almost every day it seems! [b]Are they any good? Or is everyone sucked in by the plethora of options and finishes and then they're pretty average basses that you want to move on within a few weeks of delivery??[/b] [/quote] More this, IMO....

We send posters and talk regularly to all our pubs..which admittedly isn't many. We also FB it and note their FB updates. This may not actually stop a double booking but at least it should flag up early enough not to waste time turning up at the gig .. And since I pop into most of the places, I check out the rosta and if I can't do that, I watch their websites. If a venue can't do that or doesn't update events for their business, chances are they aren't focused on that element and we wont be wanting to play there anyway.

[quote name='Mickeyboro' timestamp='1415961800' post='2605561'] Daevid Allen health bulletin from last month: hope he makes it! [color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]On 1st October daevid's course of radiotherapy was completed. During the last phase of treatment it was decided to double the level of radiation and double the number of sessions to two per day. Consequently daevid is frail as could possibly be, far below shattered, very quiet and as Turiya e-mailed, "very introverted", he has also lost a lot of weight - but most importantly the cancer is gone. Now comes the slow journey back to being a healthy, happy, independent 77 year old.[/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]When he decided to embrace the radiotherapy course of action daevid said he would commit himself completely and utterly for the duration, and do whatever 'they' said needed to do done. Then, when it was all over, he would commit himself totally to naturopathic pathways back to wellness -[/font][/color] [/quote] I think I posted here or somewhere else but we played on a festival bill with him in Italy and apart from a very chaotic sound check which took hours..but to be fair, the weather in the medieval square was fantastic so who cares..and he came across as a nice guy. I also recall he was very fit as we saw him go from the hotel off for a run. Not the dopehead that we assumed, altho I can't say that about the band, but maybe the story fitted at that time. His set made an impression as well. I hope he gets well

My last excusion into originals got us paid as we had pro 'guys' who insisted on it or we wouldn't have had a band. And I wasn't going to trawl London without at least 'petrol' expenses. I didn't think we were alone in that as the promoters offices all had us in collecting the money. Sure, we worked very hard getting people there, but so did the other bands if I recall. Maybe we were just lucky...but we were lucky most times at places like the Mean Fiddler, Orange club and Ronnie Scott's so I don't get this originals can't get money thing... I agree that a lot of bands don't seem to bother with the 'business' side enough, IME

I have an account over there but I agree..it is too big and also too anal, and full of trolls or flamers. It is a shame as there are a few very knowledgeable types over there but they are few and far between and not sure they post there much now anyway. And woe betide if they don't agree with a point, but there you go... I haven't been there for months and can't say I feel the need. I don't even find it the place of any decent reference anymore. oh well, no biggie. Sometimes I think an idea that starts out as a 'community' learns there are other pressures and distractions and they cease to be the place that attracted the people that made them good in the first place. It happens..

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1415897423' post='2605020'] You can't even get a USA standard five for a grand jtuk mine was nearly £1400, another couple of ton for the deluxe which is into used boutique money isn't it? [/quote] I wouldn't pay new prices for the American Deluxe J5, Pete... I'd start to get interested at £1k for a s/h price. And that would also get you into territory inhabited by better clones as well. The thing that I like about the Am Delux is RW and binding which is what I want on my next bass. Other than that, I don't need to buy another as I am more than happy with what I have. I know the DJ5 has those features but I am not so sure on the rest of the bass, on the ones I've played so far.. Put a decent pre amp in one and you might be on the right tracks, tho..??

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1415882802' post='2604777'] I've never found that adding a single inch to the speaking length of the string (less than 3% of the length) makes any useful difference. Fine if you like the feel of the extra space between the frets, [b]but as a solution to a less than adequate low B, IME string choice and overall neck and neck joint construction are far more important.[/b] [/quote] True, IMO.