zbd1960

Cello's tuning is in fifths CGDA rather than the bass's fourths. Generally playing cello you avoid open strings... but it's a complex subject... In baroque era it was more acceptable to use open strings, but that was partly because they played on gut strings which do not ring the way metal strings do, and the bow and bowing technique were different...

A friend of mine is a sound engineer. He has an M.Sc in it. In most countries you can only use the title engineer if suitably qualified/accredited and it s a protected title. Not in the uk... we should respect the title of engineer more and reserve it for those with appropriate qualifications/accreditations but unlikely to change

The joy of transposing instruments - I play both Bb ad Eb saxes... Sometimes, baritone sax only has a bass part to read from, in which case they have to read it as if it was treble clef instead of bass and add three sharps to the key signature... Makes accidentals entertaining

Yep, they're big beasts - the hard cases are ridiculous

My primary instrument is cello, but my primary skill is as a choral singer singing the bass/baritone line. Because of the instruments I play, I read all four standard clefs (bass tenor alto, treble) and you need three of those to play cello (bass, tenor, and treble). Sight-reading comes with practice. My singing teacher would just shove something in front of me and say 'sing this'... Later in my early 50s starting on cello, I immediately joined a community orchestra and got thrown in the deep end. Over time your ability to play improves and the complexity of what you can play at sight increases. Sure, you can't play everything and you have to do things like reduce a mountain of semi-quavers to quavers, or perhaps even just crotchets, but over time you improve. With the exception of some jazz, all the groups I play in on cello and sax involve playing music that's part of a large score / arrangement. Improvising on that is not an option and you would not be expected to play it from memory. Obviously, if you are playing a solo then there is an option to learn that from memory. I find playing from memory - because it's something I've rarely done - extremely difficult. I've been doing it for some of the stuff I do on sax and in my bass lessons, but I find it extremely difficult to do and I struggle to remember something even half an hour later. Is that something that can be improved? Yes, bu tI find reading music much easier. When you're an experienced 'reader', it's like reading a book - you're not reading the individual letters (or notes), you see the shape and respond to it. Which skill-set is important to you depends to some extent on the genre you're performing and the nature of the group you are performing with. If you're in a covers or a jazz band playing a core repertoire then learning all of that from memory and improvising it is feasible. If I'm playing in an orchestra or singing in a choir and we've got a handful of rehearsals then a concert to perform two hours' worth of music that you might never see ever again (or not for some years anyway) then you need to be able to read.

The baroque era saw the theorbo. It's in various forms, a bass lute with 7 to 10 courses plus 7 diapason strings (i.e. they're not fretted).

Within reason, range can be extended up or down with some suitable vocal exercises, but there are limits... A good teacher can help to free up the voice. Most people should be able to cover 2 octaves. What causes problems is that some well-known singers, and therefore well-known tunes that they performed, have an exceptional range. For example, Bing Crosby had a range of about 3 octaves.

Yes, vocal range is very important. A low bass will be able to sing the C below the bass clef. A top tenor should be able to hit the C an octave above middle C. If you try to sing outside of your range, you can do damage to your voice. Range can be increased to some extent with suitable training.

Sounds like the strings are ringing on and you're not muting? There'll be YT videos about how to do it

OK I’ve been triggered to write this by the recent posts regarding problematic singers… On the back of that I said I’d write about my background and experience, and I hope that some of it will help others who might be thinking about singing… My experience of singing as a youngster was minimal and limited to the odd sea shanty in music lessons at school and the inevitable hymns in church. I had the frequent bad experience that many have of being told not to sing in the school choir… To avoid this being a very long story, I was exposed to hearing a lot of very good choral music from a cathedral choir. That led me to want to sing. In my 30s I found a good singing teacher and after a trial session he suggested that my voice was probably light baritone (upper bass). I had weekly lessons with him for 8 or 9 years. Within a few months I was singing with his choir and going to choral workshops, singing weekends, summer school… I really enjoyed it and found out I was OK. I’ve sung a huge repertoire of material over the years, mostly classical, performed with small chamber choirs and very large choral groups everywhere from local village hall to cathedrals and concert halls (including the Royal Albert Hall). I’ve been accompanied by everything from a church organ, piano, small amateur ensembles, professional groups to full professional symphony orchestras. At 33 I couldn’t sing a note. We can all sing, but certainly British culture doesn’t encourage communal or group singing the way some cultures do. There is technique to singing, to how you breath, how you vocalise and phonate… My range as a baritone was roughly the two octaves from low F# to the one above middle C. I had a lot of power in the upper register, but very little low down, and I couldn’t sing anything below F, unlike second (low) basses who usually sing down to C. Going to workshops as a baritone, I’d often get asked to cover the second (low) tenor line, but my voice would tire very quickly doing that. A couple of years ago a friend who is a highly respected vocal coach suggested I have an assessment from an expert vocal coach who was attending a workshop she was running. I had a session with him, and it was a revelation. Men’s voices don’t fully settle until mid-30s and his assessment had me singing top Cs (octave above middle C) which means I’m a 1st tenor… He thinks that when I was assessed at 33 my voice hadn't fully settled. So why was my voice tiring trying to sing the lower 2nd tenor part in workshops etc which was mostly within my range? Because I have a whole pile of learnt behaviours to sing baritone and basically putting too much effort into ‘pushing’ to reach the high notes. So, after a 20 year break, I looked for a teacher and eventually found an opera singer whose experience is very similar – he trained at RNCM as a baritone but struggled until he found the right teacher and retrained as a tenor. So, I have been having lessons with him and ‘unlearning’ stuff which is mostly about relaxing and not letting ‘automatic’ things get hold and 'grab' the voice. There are different styles of singing and some of the techniques / methods are different for those different genres. Singing say baroque oratorio, or Romantic era art songs/lieder, is different to musical theatre, which is different to American Song Book etc. Like learning any instrument, it is worthwhile having a suitable teacher to get you into good habits. It is extremely easy with singing to mess up breathing for example. With lessons things like tone and vocal range will develop. One of the common issues that untrained singers have is that their voice tires after 20 or 30 minutes. This is due to tension and leads to too much effort, in essence 'tuned shouting' rather than singing. Over a protracted period, this can do damage to the voice. There’s a lot more I could say, but that’s enough for one post! I hope the information is of use/interest to people. Happy to discuss in more detail if people wish me to.

Yes, unfortunately for most people we don't seem to take singing very seriously in the UK so it's not encouraged in youngsters and too many youngsters get told they can't sing. The solution is some decent music/singing lessons... I hadn't sung a note until I was in my 30s and I started lessons. The late start explains why I'm reluctant to sing solo... After a break from lessons for 20 years, I resumed a year or so again and retraining from baritone to tenor (if there's interest, I will start a thread about why/what etc)

I'm an experienced choral singer (not solo) and I don't get how people get to sing and to be so unaware to not realise that they're out-of-tune. If nothing has been done by the band to flag it up, query it, try to work out what the problem is then it's unlikely to change. The reasons vary, but could be poor key choice as some singers - especially 1st sops - get all 'ego' about having to sing top As or whatever. There is also the common issue of 'anyone can sing'. Well, that's true up to a point, but singing, like playing, requires practice and there is technique involved in doing it properly as well.

Yes, it was Jan. He's done a lot to sort out my cello. Made and fitted a new bridge, tuned the finger board, new end-pin unit and end-pin (he has them made out of tool steel), new (tuned) tail-piece to balance treble/bass and new tail gut, clean and polish (very big job), measure and reconfiguration of the bridge (moved it about 10mm towards the lower bouts - 'f' holes in the wrong place), and new strings.

Well, the family still seems to be making instruments - I think 5th generation? I did some internet digging to find out about the maker. My instrument is probably a 'workshop' instrument made by the journeyman under supervision rather than made by the master luthier. It seems to have been made around 1900

Agreed. I realise most will be small run by one person - I've dealt with luthiers for cellos, they're generally one person in a workshop. My main cello is German from around 1900 and I had it sorted out by a guy near Liverpool. He has a nice big Victorian house and his workshop is a mix of the cellar and the attic rooms.

Thank you for the feedback that has come in - it's all useful. I am looking around quite widely and will be travelling around as needed. I've already noticed one thing, which is not everyone replies to e-mails... there are several companies who will remain nameless who haven't replied yet to e-mails sent a week ago. It might be holidays... in which case put an 'out of office' auto reply in place... but it might not be. First impressions count.

My first time looking through and listening to submissions. I'm impressed by what you guys get up to! I've dabbled with more traditional composition - nothing serious. I need to give some thought to having a go over the coming months.

ooh - will pencil this in and hope that the confirmation comes through. Less than 50 miles for me, but horrible cross-country rural A roads route - about an hour's drive.

Background Waffle... For reasons I will explain in a moment, I am seriously considering commissioning a bass. I have always liked the idea of having an instrument made for me. I first thought about it with a tenor viol (viola da gamba). Whilst I love the viol, the problem is I find it impossible to find others to play with (almost all music for tenor viol is as part of a viol consort of 3 - 6 instruments). They're also expensive at around £5k+ and long lead times from luthiers. I did consider cello, but there are reasons for not doing so. First is cost - at least £10k and probably nearer £15k. Big problem is you have no idea what it will sound like and it can take about 3 years' of playing to 'break in'. Until 2 weeks ago I was going to leave thinking about a bass for another year or two until I felt 'good enough'... Then a work colleague and friend who I've been to lunch with for most days of the last 35 years dropped dead. He was 3 years younger than me and unlike me, still working. Complete re-think: why wait? I'm already over 60, I can afford to do it now, so I'm going to get on with it. The Plan After reading various posts/threads I have been looking at various web sites of various luthiers whose work I like the look of. I have e-mailed out, but replies seem to be on the slow side... I'm drawing up a list of things / options. Probably go with 5 string based loosely around J bass. Long term I am looking to playing jazz / big band but will no doubt get to play many other genres at times. So, probably want a clean and neutral sound (that can always be modified by amps or pedals). I realise an experienced luthier will be able to help and advise, especially when it comes to PUP and electronics options. Any thoughts on pitfalls to avoid? I'm hoping I get to start discussing with a luthier next week.

... Lesson #1... don't read threads like this.... Now I've been drooling on my laptop scrolling through various web sites...

I play tenor and bass, but not the violone / great bass which as you say is the ancestor of the double bass. Viols and guitars have a common ancestor... the vihuela.

Currently out of stock, but good to know.

Until recently I worked in IT in financial services. The online/web side of the business had a nightmare of GDPR, but even me working on the big box / mainframe type side had a nightmare with it. I had to design a system to do with GDPR compliance and it was tough going as you could not get a clear answer out of the regulators. Add in the poorly thought out PSD2 (Personal Services Directive 2) and the increase in costs was horrendous. I flagged up that the imposed changes would lead to increased complaints - which the regulators monitor and issue fines - regulator said 'tough'. It led to increased complaints.... Regulations / laws in this space need to be simple and unambiguous.

Before going down the instrument route, it might be worth paying to see a physiotherapist - taking the bass with you if necessary. They can both make an assessment of what you're doing and also diagnose what the issue is. I had pain in my left elbow from playing cello and it was faulty fingering technique due to gripping the neck of the cello. Round here a private 45m session is about £40.

oooh... shiny.... On my bucket list is to commission an instrument - more realistic and significantly cheaper and more predictable than commissioning a cello....