Help: modding a vintage bass

[Beedster]

PS I want to make it clear that I'm NOT looking to deceive a future buyer. At best I'd like to be able to say the bass has had a pre-amp installed and reverted to original, at worst I guess that the original components have been re-installed, so please don't feel that you're involved in some form of conspiracy here!

V

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='The Burpster' post='826842' date='May 3 2010, 09:14 PM']....If its not that, then de-solder it and get on with the job - as prospective owner buying a '64 of someone that claimed it was original I'd be well p!ssed off if I found out that you'd put a pre in it anyway....[/quote]
I need to understand something.
If he did the mod then decided to sell the bass but returned everything back to oringinal (minus the solder of course) would you still be pissed off?

edit :Ha ha Ok I type slow.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Ou7shined

[Beedster]

Had a comment by PM that the Jamerson tone is what's special about a '64 Precision. Fair point for sure. I guess the obvious question in response is do you think that, were it available at the time, his tone would have been better with a P-Retro?

C

EDIT. What I mean is do you think that if he had the opportunity to install an on-board preamp, he would have done?

Edited May 3, 2010 by Beedster

[OutToPlayJazz]

Hi Chris,

By all accounts, an early 60's pre-CBS Precision is a very special instrument to a lot of people & only a seriously anally retentive collector is going to be bothered about a little bit of soldering. At the end of the day, if you want to try the pre, it sounds as if it'll be pretty easy to put it back to standard again if you don't like it.

What no one else seems to have asked you so far is what the other Precision with the P-retro sounds like. What're the main changes (over and above it being thicker and more powerful than before!) and how does the response of the instrument improve compared to it's previously passive self?

Kinda makes me glad my AV-Series Precision is only a 'mere' copy!

Rich.

Edited May 3, 2010 by OutToPlayJazz

[Sibob]

[quote name='Beedster' post='826908' date='May 3 2010, 10:32 PM']Had a comment by PM that the Jamerson tone is what's special about a '64 Precision. Fair point for sure. I guess the obvious question in response is do you think that, were it available at the time, his tone would have been better with a P-Retro?

C

EDIT. What I mean is do you think that if he had the opportunity to install an on-board preamp, he would have done?[/quote]

Well, probably not, Jameson strikes me as being a player, not a gear head!

Think of all the awesome P players of today, guys like Pino......do you think they have active circuits in their P's?
No....they have other basses for that.
I mean I'm just playing Devils Advocate, but all I can say is if I were to buy an old Precision (and I am looking), its because it sounds like an old Precision, not because I want a bass with provenance that sounds like a new 'super-precision'

If you are intent though, it sounds like it's going to be a case of removing solder, seeing as you can't lift out the whole harness!

Oh and an apology, I certainly don't mean to derail this topic, just speaking my mind on the issue
I can see the appeal, John's preamps are the best in the business!!!

Si

[discreet]

[quote name='Beedster' post='826908' date='May 3 2010, 10:32 PM']Had a comment by PM that the Jamerson tone is what's special about a '64 Precision. Fair point for sure. I guess the obvious question in response is do you think that, were it available at the time, his tone would have been better with a P-Retro?

What I mean is do you think that if he had the opportunity to install an on-board preamp, he would have done?[/quote]

I doubt it very much. AFAIK 'The Funk Machine' was completely stock, he retained the ashtrays and hardly, if ever, changed his strings.

Don't do it, pleeeese! It's just plain wrong, I tells ya!

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote name='discreet' post='827003' date='May 3 2010, 11:56 PM']I doubt it very much. AFAIK 'The Funk Machine' was completely stock, he retained the ashtrays and hardly, if ever, changed his strings.

Don't do it, pleeeese! It's just plain wrong, I tells ya![/quote]

Quite true - I've just been reading about Jameson's bass. He was quoted as saying that he, in fact, never changed the strings after he replaced the original Fender stock strings with LaBellas.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='827017' date='May 4 2010, 12:20 AM']Quite true - I've just been reading about Jameson's bass. He was quoted as saying that he, in fact, never changed the strings after he replaced the original Fender stock strings with LaBellas.[/quote]

Jamerson was a jazz player to start with, i.e. double bass. That, together with the really limited recording technology available at Motown in the early days where they struggled to fit everything in the mix, no doubt influenced his tonal preference enormously and the latter would have limited what options would actually work in the mix context to a much greater extent than today. Also don't forget, he had tape saturation and a recording engineer to shape his tone - he wouldn't need the facility to modify it from the bass.

I must say I kind of like the idea of Chris modifying his bass, just to annoy all the collector-types! It's only a blob of solder, after all...but if resale is likely then I guess it makes sense to be cautious.

(I bet this bass isn't on original strings though - would the collectors keep these on too?! Even Jamerson might have broken a couple after 40-odd years)

[Sibob]

For me its not the fact that its collectible, and removing the solder will somehow devalue it. It's that it's a 46 year old bass, sounds like a cool 46 year old bass, so use it as such (with amp and outboard controls ).
If I wanted an active bass, I'd buy a MIJ or MIA and put the preamp in that

Si

[neepheid]

I wouldn't mod it, but it's not my bass.

Edited May 4, 2010 by neepheid

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='neepheid' post='827139' date='May 4 2010, 09:44 AM']I wouldn't mod it, but it's not my bass.[/quote]
That's the question right there. Whose bass is it? Is it Chris' or is he just looking after it for the next guy?



Oh and Matt, when have you never modded a bass that belonged to you?

[Beedster]

Wow, great response guys, many thanks. I think this is an interesting thread which I'm sure others will read and add to, so I'd like to reply in short to a few points above. Apologies for not replying to PMs but I've only got a few minutes and you know how long the whole PM thing can take these days!

Firstly, I am categorically not looking to turn this instrument into a Sadowsky-style super bass. I've been there and done it. It's interesting to see how people's views of what a pre-amp is for differ. OK, A Sadowsky PJ has got all basses covered, the pre-amp is a definitve part of, if not source of, the sound. My view on installing a P-Retro is that I need to retain the core tone of the instrument whilst having sufficient control at the bass to balance my tone with that of the band and the room, and sometimes, but not too often, to tweak out a tone that would be otherwise difficult to tweak from this bass (without going back to the amp at least). I play heavy flats, and arguably - and I'm sure others will disagree - whilst the core tone is something special, they are somewhat more limited in how they respond to both playing technique and passive tone circuits. I don't need another bass for different sounds, I want subtle variations on the one sound; I certainly hated the days when I had to pick up a different bass for different tracks.

Secondly, the only mod to the bass is one solder joint. John has developed an elegant power solution, with the unit charged through the jack socket. No mods to the cavities, pickguard or existing circuit are required.

Thirdly, the P-Retro has a good bypass, so I'm not taking anything away from the tone, simply adding to if I need to.

Lastly, I'm doing this because I am keeping it, and didn't buy it for purely investment purposes.

Cheers

Chris

PS personally I think Jamerson would have jumped at a P-Retro, and at times, his tone would have been better as a a result, especially live.

PPS I'll get my coat

[Beedster]

PPPS I'll get back to you as to how the P-Retro sounds once I've given it a proper workout with the band. Early signs, albeit on the fretless, are extremely promising

Chris

[Sibob]

Did you see the article about the P-retro in this months BGM?, or know about it before hand?

Have you tried the '64 with rounds in a gigging enviroment?
Si

[Beedster]

[quote name='Sibob' post='827334' date='May 4 2010, 12:36 PM']Did you see the article about the P-retro in this months BGM?, or know about it before hand?

Have you tried the '64 with rounds in a gigging enviroment?
Si[/quote]

Hi Si

See [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=13343"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=13343[/url]

And yes, but prefer flats

Chris

[BassBod]

I'm late to the party on this one but....two comments.

Outboard, all the way. If the bass has survived 70's DiMarzios ( I like 'em) and 80s EMGs ( I like 'em too) then leave it. I love the Sadowsky box and the Aguilar version, but I also love the fact you can leave them at home.

Before you do anything, plug your Pbass into an alembic preamp. Honestly, you'll never hear things the same way again.

That wasn't much use really was it??

[Toasted]

Chris - would you change the pickup if the preamp change doesn't give you what you want? What about adding a bad-ass to get a bit more sustain? I've always liked mirror pickguards too. Have you met my friend on ebay.de ?

I don't think I need to make my point more crudely than above

J.

[bumnote]

Ive got a 64 which has been fitted with Fralins,a raven labs pre amp and flats, and it is my get a great sound anytime anywhere bass. Its been like that for 10 years and I wouldnt change it for the world.

However my circumstances are different to yours, I bought it in 69 [well I actually swapped it for a 9 month old POS Gibson EBO] and it was elready pretty battered after touring round germany.

There was no magic in those days about vintage guitars, [you could pick up a used 60s precision or strat very cheaply at one time] the bass was tatty, and there was a split acrosss the headstock going through the G tuner.I had it resprayed, the bridge was rusty so I replaced it and the knobs, and later experimented with dimarzios, emg, and SD pickups, a BTC preamp, and had it resprayed again. The pots were crackly so I replaced them.

I was conned out of the original pickups because I was naive and stupid and it didnt dawn on me till later that older instruments were starting to go up in value.

It would be nice to think it was original, and it would be nice if it was worth a bob or two, but you know, it doesnt really matter because every time I pick it up, it just feels right. It reminds me of the 100s of gigs and shared experiences, and bands gone by, and I know all the little dents and idiosyncracies.

On the other hand youve just bought yours, and presumably paid a lot of money for it. The raven labs preamp is probably not that dissimilar to Johns, and it allows a bit more control without it sounding as if its got a normal active preamp.

Ive currently various other basses including a Us Jo osbourne, a couple of music men, and a couple of CIJ precisions [with 1 3/4 necks] but the 64 is my favourite. Having said that, from a tone and feel point of view, I have set up one of the mij in the past with a fralin and the same preamp and i couldnt hear any difference between that and the 64.

My head tells me that you should buy a CIJ or a Bob Glaub, fit it with the preamp of your choice and save the 64.

My heart says if you like the 64 then whats the point of having it if you dont use it, and im sure Johns preamp will make it even better than it is.

As an aside, I wonder in 20 or 30 years time if old instruments will continue to appreciate, as they have been doing. While there are a small number of 59 Les Pauls, stradivarius violins, and guitars owned by Eric C, John E etc, Fender has made hundreds of thousands of guitars, and while many like mine are non original, and some are lost for good, there are many from my generation who have these tucked under their beds as a supplement to their old age pension.

When these start coming on the market, will the prices stay as they are?

[John-E-Retro]

[quote name='Beedster' post='826075' date='May 3 2010, 12:06 AM']Despite the risk, I'm determined that my '64 Precision will be my main gigging bass. To that end I ordered one of John East's P-Retros (well two to be honest). I've installed one in my 71 fretless (and it's sounding pretty sweet), but I want to install the other in my 64. Now here's the problem; the solder joints are original, and, much as I know it's stupid in the extreme, removing these solder joints to install the pre-amp will reduce the resale value of the bass. All I can think of doing is cutting about an inch up the cable to retain the original solder, and then, when I replace the original passive circuit (if I do), connecting the cables under the cloth so that the work is less obvious.

So, as this is clearly both devious and daft, has anyone got any better ideas?

Chris[/quote]

Sorry I'm late on replying to this one Chris!

You've already had lots of views on the issues of messing with vintage or not, and how.

This may be too late, and I've only just thought of it actually now, but one way to not mess with the solder joints on the pots is to unsolder the wires at the pickups, which in my 62, has solder eyelets on the undersides of the pickups. Then solder some new wires for the P-Retro. This way you can keep all the the original pot wiring totally intact for those that really care about this stuff, and just re-solder on the underside of the pickups to go back to stock.

I'm no-one to talk about keeping vintage intact as I added two Dimarzio Js & brass scratchplate, along with the standard P pickup to my 62P, during the early 80s. I then took it back just a single J pickup in the early 90s. I've since had the holes filled and re-finished, see the P bass pic on my website or P-Retro instructions. I'm sure I have the original pots somewhere too!

The bass had already been re-finished when I bought it in 78. I was told it was some sort of Leyland car maroon, probably used for Allegros!

I'm certainly one for feeling that good old instruments should be played rather than hung on the wall and never touched, in case of devaluation.

[BigRedX]

I'm probably the last person the give advice considering that I don't buy into either Fenders or the original vintage thing but...

You need to ask yourself this: If the previous owner had carried out the modifications that you are considering and then reconnected the original controls in the way that you are proposing, would you still have bought the bass?

Personally I don't see what is wrong with the outboard pre-amp idea. If you're worried about cable lengths how about fitting the pre-amp into a box that attaches to your strap in the manner off a wireless system? That would keep the cable length between the pickup and the per-amp to a minimum.

[Beedster]

Totally forgot this thread, sorry!

I didn't do it after all The P-Retro is bloody amazing, and has completely changed my views on active Precisions, but, when push came to shove....

Thinking about putting the spare P-Retro into my EUB now!

Chris