Naughty Naughty but I told you so.

[warwickhunt]

In another thread I made an observation about private listings and means of identifying shill bidding, rather than hijack (resurrect/drag on) the other thread I'll just copy over my point (original eBay item 170162813144).

'Point taken in return Andy but it's not hard to spot 'possible' cheats.

I'll pluck an example out at random wink.gif

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170162813144&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=007"][url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...A:IT&ih=007"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...A:IT&ih=007[/url][/url]

Here's a private listing/hidden ID sale that ended today. Please note that bidder #9 places a bid at just below certain thresholds, now ask yourself this! If you 'genuinely' wanted to buy that bass (which I would have had I an account) then would you place a bid £1 or £10 below a given threshold? Be honest if you did want it you'd at least bid a straight £800 and the wise ebayer would stick a £ or two onto that. Decidedly odd to say the least that bidder #9 actually bid a measly couple of quid (euro) less than amounts that you or I would identify as crucial amounts... or am I just a little jaded? Who knows'

... and surprise surprise what is back on eBay.

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VINTAGE-83-WARWICK-STREAMER-STAGE-I-NECK-THRU_W0QQitemZ170165937548QQihZ007QQcategoryZ38078QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VINTAGE-83-WARWICK-S...1QQcmdZViewItem[/url]

Edited November 5, 2007 by warwickhunt

[andy67]

got it!

I'm tying to step back a little at the mo as I've become real synical re ebay and this type of activity - it really gets to me!

The real annoyance is the fact that ebay knows it happens but appear to let it go?? thats making money for you eh? except we, the good traders and honest buyers get hit for it all too often!

For me an example of this was when bidding on a Yamaha Attitude:

price - 99p no reserve

got to £349 with an hour to go I bid £375 and was getting there...then all of a sudden - £500 22 mins to go £700 15 seconds £750 last seconds £810 bought buy a woman whos previous form had absolutely nothing to do with music.....so I followed up and found that the seller and the buyer had previous...and guess what...it came back on two days later - relisted due to buyer error!

got real p*ssed off at that and from there it began - my quest for ebay honesty - but have ended up with nothing other than irritation

[WalMan]

A way around shill bids is to use a sniper that only puts your bid on in the last few seconds.

I realise that such things may be frowned upon as much as getting your mates to help out inflating the price, but it is an option.

[GreeneKing]

I was chatting to my daughter's boyfriend about eBay dealing. He then proudly boasted about shilling bidding for his mates and even selling known stolen gear (plant) that was defective and unservicable at a vast profit, dropping it off with the buyer and doing a runner.

Needless to say I'm hoping that the relationship doesn't last!

It's interesting because I'm sure he considers himself fairly honest and trustworthy, but just 'playing the game'.

[andy67]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='83859' date='Nov 5 2007, 09:28 AM']I was chatting to my daughter's boyfriend about eBay dealing. He then proudly boasted about shilling bidding for his mates and even selling known stolen gear (plant) that was defective and unservicable at a vast profit, dropping it off with the buyer and doing a runner.

Needless to say I'm hoping that the relationship doesn't last!

It's interesting because I'm sure he considers himself fairly honest and trustworthy, but just 'playing the game'.[/quote]


its the concience thing that would always get me.....

I have started looking at items and bidding within the last few seconds, if I feel that the auction is valid, allowing me to observe the bidding trend.

[Dodge]

[quote name='andy67' post='83891' date='Nov 5 2007, 11:12 AM']I have started looking at items and bidding within the last few seconds, if I feel that the auction is valid, allowing me to observe the bidding trend.[/quote]

Exactly what I do - I pick what I'm prepared to pay for it and bit at the last moment. That way if I win, I get it for a price I'm prepared to pay and I don't really care if there's been any shilling / weird bidding patterns. If I lose, so be it.

[WalMan]

[quote name='andy67' post='83891' date='Nov 5 2007, 11:12 AM']its the concience thing that would always get me.....

I have started looking at items and bidding within the last few seconds, if I feel that the auction is valid, allowing me to observe the bidding trend.[/quote]
I see what you are saying in the earlier example, but often bids steaming in right at the death will be things like AuctionSniper diving on as instructed.

It does cost a bit for a winning bidders fee, but saves the aggro of sitting watching all hell break loose at the end just as your internet connection decides to have a go slow. You set your max bid in advance and it does the rest for you. So effectively what you are doing, but a machine places the bid for you in the last few seconds (good if it ends in the middle of the night and you do not want to sit up for it, and should avoid the worst of being bid up by going on early).

[markytbass]

With broad band (ADSL) you can literally leave bidding til the last 10 seconds. I always leave it to the last 20ish seconds after I bid early on some car seats (£10) only to see the price go up to £9.50 in the last few seconds. Ok I won them and £9.50 was a very good price but it seemed someone didn't want them to sell for 50p.

Edited November 5, 2007 by markytbass

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

I usually have a few windows open on the page and keep refreshing them to get a handle on how fast the site is responding and if there's any price movement. I can usually get my high bid in with just three or four seconds to go. I have won a few auctions where people have put their bids on in the last 10 secs and my bid comes in just after. I doubt that this approach would work on dial-up though.

[Musky]

I usually use www.snip.pl for bidding - it costs about 10p for a successful bid, although you get 5 free credits for signing up. It'll put the bid at a default 6 seconds, though you can vary that if you want.

Of course none of this actually stops anyone from shill bidding and driving up the price, though it does stop them from retracting a bid. If the person shilling is the highest bidder, no matter when you put your bid in you'll still end up paying more than you should have done.

[WalMan]

[quote name='Musky' post='84393' date='Nov 6 2007, 12:58 PM']Of course none of this actually stops anyone from shill bidding and driving up the price, though it does stop them from retracting a bid. If the person shilling is the highest bidder, no matter when you put your bid in you'll still end up paying more than you should have done.[/quote]
Except that they have to assume that snipes will come in at the very end and get a bid in early enough to account for that and drive it to nearer the price they want without having to set a reserve or start price - at least that's the way I look at it.

It's a shame one has to take that view, and use things like snipers to try to get around it but there you go, that's life (as Esther used to say)

[Mr. Foxen]

Whats the advantage of last minute bidding? The auction goes to whoever bids most first, if someone is bidding dodge and get more than you, its will get relisted, and try again, if they push the bid up, they can't push it past what you were willing to spend. I bid on an item listed here, the amount I had ready to pay for it, someone tried feeling me out last minute, by bidding £5 more each time, but they ran outta time and I won cause I'd not tried to last minute it, and it was below my max bid anyway.

[andy67]

I'm no quite understanding parts of what you are trying to say...but, the 'feeler' bids are a way of pushing up the final amount, whereas if you bid last minute you get to observe the bidding trend, make an assumption based on the observation (set up or not - proxy bidding etc) and then bid your amount, not an amout that has been pushed up to get more money out of the sale because you put an initial bid in...

If more people bid last thing it would, in my view, stop all this proxy nonsense as the dishonest seller would have no way of reaching: a, his reserve or b, an inflated price due to one of his friends bidding but this is just my opinion and perhaps a 'bin' should become the norm in ebay?? I don't know, however something needs to be done to halt the farce that is bringing down ebay...

[neepheid]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='84688' date='Nov 6 2007, 11:40 PM']Whats the advantage of last minute bidding?[/quote]

The longer you are at the top, the longer people have to shoot at you. Ebay would like you to think that people put in their max amount and they handle it, but judging by bidding patterns I think most people treat it like a regular auction (bid, get outbid, raise bid, lather, rinse, repeat until you win or don't want to continue). I sometimes put a sighter bid in - usually to see where a reserve might be, but apart from that I'm all about the last 20 seconds. Mobile eBay on the phone is great for this when I'm away from the computer

[warwickhunt]

I didn't realise anyone actually placed their highest until the last seconds! As has been pointed out it gives people time to go away and think about bidding more.

[bassbloke]

The obvious benefit of placing your highest bid at the last minute is that many people bidding on an item do so without taking an objective view of the value of the item on which they're bidding.

Unless you're stupid or desperate enough to bid way over the odds for an item, chances are, someone will always outbid at the lats minute just, well, just because...

[Ba55me15ter]

I wrote a little app to help with last-minute/second bidding. See what you think - I use it all the time! I generally wait until about 5 secs on the clock...


[url="http://www.quicksound.co.uk/timer.shtml"][url="http://www.quicksound.co.uk/timer.shtml"]http://www.quicksound.co.uk/timer.shtml[/url][/url]

(let me know if it's not working as it does break from time to time and I can't check it at the moment as I'm at work).

EDIT: er, yeah I think it might be broken. I'll fix it tonight and let you know...

Edited November 7, 2007 by Ba55me15ter

[Musky]

I just thought I'd point out, for the benefit of those sitting with their fingers poised over the bid button in the final few seconds of an auction, that ebay gets a lot of traffic on the quarter hour (particularly on the hour). It's usually better to bid a few seconds before you might otherwise do if the auction you're watching ends at this time.

[Ba55me15ter]

The eBay timer is now fixed.

Feel free to give it a try:

[url="http://www.quicksound.co.uk/timer.shtml"][url="http://www.quicksound.co.uk/timer.shtml"]http://www.quicksound.co.uk/timer.shtml[/url][/url]

[WalMan]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='84859' date='Nov 7 2007, 12:13 PM']I didn't realise anyone actually placed their highest until the last seconds! As has been pointed out it gives people time to go away and think about bidding more.[/quote]
I don't. I let a sniper do it for me and warn me if what I had set as a max bid is beaten sooner.

So I have the chance to[list]
[*]withdraw the snipe before the end if I change my mind
[*]increase the max if my highest bid gets beaten - the sniper sends an email to warn the max bid you set has been exceeded
[*]not get drawn into / carried away in a bidding war - unless I particularly want to
[*]don't show my hand too soon, and
[*]as a result probably not get bid up by going on early
[/list]
I have sat and watched a couple of auctions for my stuff do nothing for 7/10 days only for all hell to break loose in the final 5 minutes. And that often seems to be the way in a lot of auctions, nothing for days then a large amount of activity right at the death.