Where is bass?

[bubinga5]

like i said, where is bass.or where can it go.....would you rather hear melodic bass lines that compliment the song, or would you rather hear super techniques that blow you away...somewhere in between for me...

ive often thought that the bass is a slave to the music really, even if its play with some flamboyance , as long as it stays within it boundries...thats where it is most effective right??

lets face it, most of the public who listen to music dont even know the bass is there(which is a shame) but what will it take, to take bass to the level that other instruments are...im thinking this may never happen because of the nature of the instrument...

sometimes i love the fact that its only us that realise the importance of electric bass, but i wish sometimes that other (non musician) people would think about what there listening to sometimes...as well as other instruments of course!! i very rarely come across anyone who says "oh i love that bass line" or "man i dig that guitar or trumpet part"

ive often said that i play bass for the bigger picture which i stand by, but does our bass playing fall on deaf ears?

are we slaves to the listeners as well as the music!

oh i do think too much..

[Doddy]

The problem with the Electric Bass is the perception that it is an easy instrument to play-and this is often
unfairly backed up by the large number of 'one finger,one string' players that are about. Let's be honest about it,
there are no 'Bass Heroes' in modern mainstream music. There are no players who stand out in the way that,for example,
Mark King did in the '80's or Flea in the '90's,that show the appeal of the instrument to a wider audience.
Even amongst the bass playing community,when a player tries to push the instrument in a direction that is viewed as
non-traditional,they are called as a w***er who is not playing 'Bass'.

The funny thing is,I've never noticed anyone talk about the Upright bass and it's 'Traditional' role. The stigma
seems more attached to the Bass Guitar,which is still a young enough instrument to be pushed into new
directions.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='650253' date='Nov 9 2009, 11:24 PM']does our bass playing fall on deaf ears?[/quote]
Possibly. But then again, I'm aiming at their feet, so I'm genuinely not too bothered whether they're actively listening. In fact, I'd prefer they didn't even notice the bass lines.

Compared to a piano or a guitar or a sax, the bass guitar is of limited value as a chordal or melodic instrument. Hence the effort required to push the boundaries.

It's nice that people try, but, IMO, it's like trying to bang in a screw with a hammer. Wrong tool for the job.

Edited November 10, 2009 by skankdelvar

[Buzz]

I don't like the super skilled fret w***ery. I appreciate the skill in the technique, but quite often bassists seem to lack the other skill of using the techniques musically.

Combine it together and you'll get a good bass track, I'll cite Flea and RHCP as an example, busy and technically complex basslines, but they pretty much always form part of the larger picture of the song. They [b]fit[/b].

Some of the stuff I hear leaves me cold, which I why I turn off if I get a solo w***ery clip chucked my way on this forum.

There's no reason why bass can't drive the song forward (random examples here include "Peaches" by The Stranglers and "London Calling" by The Clash) where the bass is the main melodic hook or main instrument, but it's still part of the greater song.

I suppose I'm trying to say I'm against songs being written [b]for[/b] fret w***ery but I'm for songs that have been written [b]with[/b] the inclusion of w***ery in mind. If you can see where I'm going with that; the latter means the techniques are woven into the song as a support, the former is songs that are written around the technique. Almost all the former ones will have solo sections in the song from the get go. Bass isn't suited to that at all.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Buzz

[Doddy]

I don't think that the Bass does have 'limited value as a chordal and melodic instrument'-Especially as a
melodic instrument. The Bass isn't melodic-it's the player. The only limitations are with the player and with
pre-conceived notions of the instruments role.
There have been Bass solo pieces since the 1700's. I don't see people dismissing players like
Dragonetti or Bottesini as 'solo w**nkery',even though they performed pieces written for solo bass.
But,players like Wooten and Caron get slated all the time for doing what is essentially the same thing-just 300 years
later.
Why shouldn't the Bass be used as a lead or solo instrument? Just because people are currently conditioned into believing
that the bass just plays riffs and chugs along on the bottom doesn't mean it should stay there.
Remember...the guitar wasn't always the predominant lead/solo instrument.

[endorka]

[quote name='Doddy' post='650309' date='Nov 10 2009, 02:13 AM']There have been Bass solo pieces since the 1700's. I don't see people dismissing players like
Dragonetti or Bottesini as 'solo w**nkery',even though they performed pieces written for solo bass.
But,players like Wooten and Caron get slated all the time for doing what is essentially the same thing-just 300 years
later.[/quote]

I have heard the Bottesini pieces dismissed in the way your describe - I can't remember the words exactly, but the feeling was that even the best solo type compositions or concertos for double bass are not the equal of the equivalents for, say, cello or clarinet. I think there is some truth in this.

In addition, playing in the upper register on the double bass is very difficult compared with playing the same on the cello. Getting good timbre and pitch takes a *lot* of practice, and so with this combined with the point in the paragraph above, playing double bass concertos is viewed by some as a fairly academic exercise, with limited applications in reality.

HOWEVER, Edgar Meyer still sounds wonderful :-)

My own current preference for the positioning of double bass in the ensemble is akin to that of the liberation of the double bass in modern classicial music - c/f the cello in Bartok's quartets, or the double bass part in Bartok's Divertimento for string ensemble. Fiendishly complex lines heavily intertwined with the rest of the instruments, where everything combines to a magnificent whole.

Jennifer

[tombboy]

After watching Mr Sheehan play live I was so impressed with his style in the context of a song. Tight to the kick, holding down an incredible groove, great sound, superb stage presence (I couldn't take my eyes of him and his technique). However, his solo-ing left me so bored I felt like shouting out "WE KNOW YOU CAN SHRED.... JUST PLAY THE DAMN SONGS!!". I know that some fans come just to see him do that but I much prefer the totally original way he contributes the songs of Mr Big.

[purpleblob]

I have to say I'm surprised by some of the comments on BC in the past on similar topics and again here. The unique thing about the bass is that it can in fact do so much in the right hands.

Before I go off on a rant, let me say from the outset, technique for technique's sake is, imho a waste of time. The music [b]must[/b] come first and the bass line must suit the song just as the drums should and so on.

Now whether you play a bassline where there you play three notes but each has lots of feel and groove or whether you play a single note bass line thundering along under a heavy rock track or if you play melody or chords or a complex solo or whatever is neither here nor there. It's what you say musically that matters the most and thus I believe there are still many possibilities musically for the bass.

[rant on]
Why should a bass be thought of as just a backing instrument and felt but never heard ? Should a bass line be limited to walking line or a root for a guitarist ? Remember not that long ago a guitar was a background instrument and look where it is now, and no, I'm not saying that the bass neccesarily will be in the same place as a guitar (or that it should be) it's a different instrument. But why should we limit our imagination just because some think a bass should be four strings (maybe 5) and play boom boom boom along with the bass drum.

There's room in the musical spectrum for Sheehan, Clarke, Wotten et al as well those guys doing perfectly good jobs play root notes in time with the bass drum.
[rant off]

I do not advocate that all music/songs require a bass solo or slap maniac or chordal playing, but I am saying there's plenty of room for all styles of playing in music just as long as it's done for the music's sake and not just to show of the players latest cool technique.

Edited November 10, 2009 by purpleblob

[longtimefred]

I play heavy rock music most of the time and cant really play much else. Most of the music i listen to is rock orientated in some way so mostly follows the same style of bass playing (apart from Primus!!!)

My style of playing and what i like basslines to do is make the songs chug along like a train following the drums and backing up the guitars and from time to time a little bit of flair when it can be heard and when the songs need it. (call me old fashioned)

Im not really one for the bass being the main sound in the music and not too bothered about solo'ing over everything and trying to be a lead instrument. I know in Jazz and funk that this can be the case but even then i only like it when the bass is just bubbling away in the background keeping the roots of the song together. I find showboating bassists boring and dont really inspire me to rock out no matter how widdly they are and how many different techniques they can use in 20 seconds of playing, i just wanna rock out! lol.

I understand that there are a lot of players out there who make the more flamboyant fret thrashing style the main thing in the music and i can appreciate that, i get the impression there are now 2 types of bassist, the chuggers and the flashy lead style ones.

Maybe we need a prefix like rhythm and lead guitarists do. Rhythm and lead bass?

and then there are the guys that play the stick bass.... where would you put them?

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Doddy' post='650309' date='Nov 10 2009, 02:13 AM']I don't think that the Bass does have 'limited value as a chordal and melodic instrument'-Especially as a
melodic instrument. The Bass isn't melodic-it's the player. The only limitations are with the player and with
pre-conceived notions of the instruments role.[/quote]

I believe I wrote that the bass guitar is limited [i]in comparison to the piano, guitar or sax[/i] as 'a chordal or melodic instrument'. The first two have the capability to deliver chord stacks that the bass cannot, and the ability to simultaneously play a melody over those chords. The sax, by contrast, can deliver a level of expression that is denied to the bass.

Now I'm sure there's a Kazoo forum out there where they're having a similar discussion, but the fact remains - by comparison to other instruments, the bass has inherent limitations. No amount of frantic fretboard moves, false harmonics, two-handed tapping and the like is going to change the essential form of the bass guitar. By comparison to a guitar, a piano or a sax, it's a clunker when it comes to solo or lead performance.

Lead and Rhythm bass. I am reminded of the great Stanley Clarke and his piccolo bass. Now that makes sense - tune it up a bit and suddenly chords and higher notes are within reach. Tune it up some more, add a couple of strings and you've got a guitar. Whoops.

[fatback]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='650281' date='Nov 10 2009, 12:21 AM']Possibly. But then again, I'm aiming at their feet,[/quote]

Oh very good. I like that a lot.

Read somewhere that violin is so effective a solo instrument cos it shares frequencies with the human voice (or something). Maybe all solo instruments need to be in that region. Not many voices down thaar.

fatback

[Doddy]

Ok Then- When compared to a Piano,Guitar and Sax, the Bass is not 'a clunker when it comes to
solo or lead performance'. Maybe the player is a 'clunker' but not the instrument.
The Bass can be played in a way that is just as expressive and melodic as anything else. Unfortunately,
too many people don't look beyond root notes and minor pentatonics because that's the 'role' of the bass.
Chordally,the bass is as capable as the guitar-especially if we move into the extended range. The only limitations,
as far as I see it,comes directly from the player and their view the 'traditional role' of the bass.

[thisnameistaken]

I think we all understand the difference between music with a good bass guitar part and music for trade shows, right?

Still, those trade show techniques are worth learning if you aspire to play at trade shows. Just don't do them in your band or they'll all think you're a twat.

[Buzz]

[quote name='fatback' post='650705' date='Nov 10 2009, 03:03 PM']Oh very good. I like that a lot.

Read somewhere that violin is so effective a solo instrument cos it shares frequencies with the human voice (or something). Maybe all solo instruments need to be in that region. Not many voices down thaar.

fatback[/quote]

Was just about to say a similar thing in response to Doddy regarding the voicing of the instruments. Human hearing is limited, and our hearing is geared more towards the mid and higher ends of the spectrum. Bass isn't in the favoured range.

Besides, I think this thread has gone on a tangent from the OP who was asking about what is better for the bass to focus on: the bass carrying the music or the music carrying the technique to whether the bass can/is an expressive instrument.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Buzz' post='650757' date='Nov 10 2009, 03:39 PM']I think this thread has gone on a tangent from the OP who was asking about what is better for the bass to focus on: the bass carrying the music or the music carrying the technique to whether the bass can/is an expressive instrument.[/quote]

IMO, the bass carries the music. Unless an audience is well prepped for the idea of a bass solo, in my little world they usually seem choose that moment to go get another beer.

Clearly, this doesn't mean the bass [i]shouldn't[/i] step forward during a set or push boundaries. Just give the average punters plenty of warning.

Edited November 10, 2009 by skankdelvar

[BassBus]

And no mention of Jaco Pastorius yet. I think he is a case in point. Buzz comments on the sound spectrum that the human ear can hear and it could be argued that Jaco's bass was EQed around the mids. Yes we do like melodies in higher registers. Not many basso profundos at the top of the charts.

The bass needs to go where ever people want to take it. One tune that comes to mind is Weather Report's 'A Remark You Made'. Jaco played that lovely lead line but them seemlessly goes back to holding down the bottom end.

Probably the only reason we don't have any young bass heroes is that they just don't get signed cause that type of music doesn't always sell bucket loads. There arn't many young guitar heroes either, except maybe Matt Belamy. Same reason, not fashionable.

The good players are out there who can take the bass forward but as is the nature of the instrument, and its players, they don't always hit you in the face.

[purpleblob]

[quote name='Buzz' post='650757' date='Nov 10 2009, 03:39 PM']Besides, I think this thread has gone on a tangent from the OP who was asking about what is better for the bass to focus on: the bass carrying the music or the music carrying the technique to whether the bass can/is an expressive instrument.[/quote]

Quite correct - this is going off on a tangent.

"would you rather hear melodic bass lines that compliment the song, or would you rather hear super techniques that blow you away" this is simple for me, it's the music that matters the most and a melody to me is far more important than going "wow that was some cool technique". But some musicians can combine super technique and musicality (oh how I hate them ).

"ive often said that i play bass for the bigger picture which i stand by, but does our bass playing fall on deaf ears", as I'm sure you already know all instruments tend to fall on deaf ears of those interested solely in the music as a whole (i.e. forgetting musicians who are picky about everything ). Very few people go "oh listen to this drum beat" or "that sax is so good". I mean at the end of the day it's the composition the majority of people listen to - the some of the parts, if you will. But then ofcourse, sometimes, an instrument plays something so cool or catchy that everyone says "listen to the bass", such as Good Times by Chic. Bernard Edward's bassline has been used again and again and I suspect most people know it's a bass and can hum the line

[spacecowboy]

The beauty of the instrument is people who care know its there, if people don't know its there we don't care.

I play bass because i heard it as predominant and distinct sound in my parents music collection *alot of 70s funk and 80's pop* and i just remember wanting to play whatever it was that made that sound, if people don't hear or understand the instrument then thats their bad luck.

[Craigmartini]

Hey guys,

I can totally understand not wanting to hear a bunch of w***king in music that does not call for it.
But allow me to say this,

Let's just say that the traditional roll of a bicycle is to get you to and from wherever you want to go to save you from walking. Would it be a fair statement to say folks like Lance Armstrong are bicycle w***kers because they take the idea of riding a bicycle to an extreme level of performance? Or the guys who ride BMX bikes made for dirt racing, riding freestyle or jumping ramps, flying through the air spinning about? I know there are bikes made for these purposes now, but that's only because someone tried something on a bike that no one had tried before. It became popular due to it being untraditional, different and overall fun to watch.

In my opinion, if people stop trying to be creative and do outside the box things on our instrument of choice, we will have a zillion bass players all doing the same exact thing. Everyone will be great at it, but no one will be different. I am all for learning the fundamentals of music and bass playing in a traditional way, that is first and foremost! There is something very satisfying to me about locking in on a groove and staying there while you watch the dance floor move to the rhythm. But if you want to learn to do more, why stop there?

Guitars were not really made to be played like Gilbert, Satriani,and Vai play them but it sure is great to watch, listen and be amazed by for some.
I guess my point is, if you are happy playing and listening to traditional bass lines, that's great, I love those too. It is all about what you find pleasing to listen to and play, as has been stated above.

But if you hear someone who has gone beyond the traditional roll of a bass (or any other instrument for that matter), just realize the person you are listening to has put lots and lots of time into playing their instrument to get those abilities. Countless hours of practice, sacrifice, and determination are required to play at that level. It takes serious dedication!

I can appreciate anything that is done well.
I don't really like modern "pop" or "hip hop" or modern "country" music, but I can appreciate the craft of it. I don't write those kind of songs, nor do I care to. Much like what you guys have already said here about bass lead music. But I play a lot of that kind of music every week for people who do love it. I see them enjoying it and I get a greater appreciation for the music I wouldn't normally listen to.

I say keep an open mind, listen to what you like and turn off what you don't. There is room in the bass world for all of us!!!

Craig

[lowdown]

[quote name='Doddy' post='650309' date='Nov 10 2009, 02:13 AM']The Bass isn't melodic-it's the player. The only limitations are with the player and with
pre-conceived notions of the instruments role.[/quote]

35 years ago i was having Bass lessons with a player called Joe Mudele.
He pretty much said to me what you said.
To me it can be any tempo, any amount of notes.
But if you are not lyrical, forget it.
[Sorry OT a bit]

Garry

Edited November 10, 2009 by lowdown

[tombboy]

[quote name='Craigmartini' post='650874' date='Nov 10 2009, 05:43 PM']Hey guys,

I can totally understand not wanting to hear a bunch of w***king in music that does not call for it.
But allow me to say this,

Let's just say that the traditional roll of a bicycle is to get you to and from wherever you want to go to save you from walking. Would it be a fair statement to say folks like Lance Armstrong are bicycle w***kers because they take the idea of riding a bicycle to an extreme level of performance? Or the guys who ride BMX bikes made for dirt racing, riding freestyle or jumping ramps, flying through the air spinning about? I know there are bikes made for these purposes now, but that's only because someone tried something on a bike that no one had tried before. It became popular due to it being untraditional, different and overall fun to watch.

In my opinion, if people stop trying to be creative and do outside the box things on our instrument of choice, we will have a zillion bass players all doing the same exact thing. Everyone will be great at it, but no one will be different. I am all for learning the fundamentals of music and bass playing in a traditional way, that is first and foremost! There is something very satisfying to me about locking in on a groove and staying there while you watch the dance floor move to the rhythm. But if you want to learn to do more, why stop there?

Guitars were not really made to be played like Gilbert, Satriani,and Vai play them but it sure is great to watch, listen and be amazed by for some.
I guess my point is, if you are happy playing and listening to traditional bass lines, that's great, I love those too. It is all about what you find pleasing to listen to and play, as has been stated above.

But if you hear someone who has gone beyond the traditional roll of a bass (or any other instrument for that matter), just realize the person you are listening to has put lots and lots of time into playing their instrument to get those abilities. Countless hours of practice, sacrifice, and determination are required to play at that level. It takes serious dedication!

I can appreciate anything that is done well.
I don't really like modern "pop" or "hip hop" or modern "country" music, but I can appreciate the craft of it. I don't write those kind of songs, nor do I care to. Much like what you guys have already said here about bass lead music. But I play a lot of that kind of music every week for people who do love it. I see them enjoying it and I get a greater appreciation for the music I wouldn't normally listen to.

I say keep an open mind, listen to what you like and turn off what you don't. There is room in the bass world for all of us!!!

Craig[/quote]

Perfect analysis....
I love bass playing... no matter how complex... in a SONG context. Solo-wise it bores me to tears. To me, it's not a solo instrument but can be and is an integral part of a musical composition. To me it's across the board.... drum solo's and EVH performing 'Eruption' don't induce an erection for me. Mind you, Mrs TB has just bought some fresh razors and a Barry White CD........... wish me luck!!

[xilddx]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='650253' date='Nov 9 2009, 11:24 PM']like i said, where is bass.or where can it go.....would you rather hear melodic bass lines that compliment the song, or would you rather hear super techniques that blow you away...somewhere in between for me...

ive often thought that the bass is a slave to the music really, even if its play with some flamboyance , as long as it stays within it boundries...thats where it is most effective right??

lets face it, most of the public who listen to music dont even know the bass is there(which is a shame) but what will it take, to take bass to the level that other instruments are...im thinking this may never happen because of the nature of the instrument...

sometimes i love the fact that its only us that realise the importance of electric bass, but i wish sometimes that other (non musician) people would think about what there listening to sometimes...as well as other instruments of course!! i very rarely come across anyone who says "oh i love that bass line" or "man i dig that guitar or trumpet part"

ive often said that i play bass for the bigger picture which i stand by, but does our bass playing fall on deaf ears?

are we slaves to the listeners as well as the music!

oh i do think too much..[/quote]

People know it's there even if it's only subliminally. In pop and rock and funk and reggae, the bass is a fantastic "mood attenuator". All instruments should be slave to the composition and to the composer's vision, although you can change that vision in some circumstances.

Edited November 10, 2009 by silddx

[OutToPlayJazz]

People like Stanley Clarke, Victor Wooten, Jaco, etc, are there to inspire us to become better musicians. To lift the bass from the back of the band to become an equal to the (most definitely) fret-w*****g guitarists. But at the end of the day, whether you play a billion notes per bar or just four, as long as you make it musical, with groove and sparkle, that's just fine. As someone else said in this thread, there's room for all styles of player & all opinions. Remember, opinions are like arseholes. Everyone's got one. Doesn't mean any of us are actually right.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='lowdown' post='650886' date='Nov 10 2009, 05:59 PM']35 years ago i was having Bass lessons with a player called Joe Mudele.
He pretty much said to me what you said.
To me it can be any tempo, any amount of notes.
But if you are not lyrical, forget it.[/quote]

But then I've heard Vic Wooten himself say that music's nothing unless you've got something to say, and then bombard people with a barrage of double-thumbing noise that sounds like a hyperactive toddler with a pair of spoons and a metal bucket for 3 minutes straight. What was he trying to say? "I can play bass THIS fast"?

[tombboy]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='651195' date='Nov 10 2009, 11:33 PM']But then I've heard Vic Wooten himself say that music's nothing unless you've got something to say, and then bombard people with a barrage of double-thumbing noise that sounds like a hyperactive toddler with a pair of spoons and a metal bucket for 3 minutes straight. What was he trying to say? "I can play bass THIS fast"?[/quote]
+1 recurring (can a '1' recur, I wonder?)
Totally admire the skill.... just a bit like chinese food for me.

BTW, Owls don't have arseholes.......... (where did THAT come from?.... I'm sure there's a reference in this thread somewhere!!).