Good ol' Trace

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='576058' date='Aug 20 2009, 08:47 PM']I think it makes me realise that as much as I do like some fat low end, I also like to concentrate on having a nice cut through crisp sound.....sometimes anyway...not always.[/quote]

It's important to bear in mind that you will almost never come across a bass player that doesn't like fat low end! However, the amount of bottom, and particularly the extension in the lows which that equates to, varies hugely from player to player.

Alex

[Merton]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='576337' date='Aug 21 2009, 08:15 AM']It's important to bear in mind that you will almost never come across a bass player that doesn't like fat low end! However, the amount of bottom, and particularly the extension in the lows which that equates to, varies hugely from player to player.

Alex[/quote]
...And that's precisely why I've moved away from TE cabs to Barefaced. That said, Trace's latest 1518 is a monstrous cab.

As for the heads, love em but found myself getting frustrated with the graphic EQ, much prefer the passive 3-band tone stack on the V-Types and Hartke LH series

[Mr.T]

[quote name='Merton' post='576353' date='Aug 21 2009, 08:36 AM']...... found myself getting frustrated with the graphic EQ, much prefer the passive 3-band tone stack on the V-Types and Hartke LH series [/quote]

As we all know from my ramblings, I loved the Trace 12-band EQ.
(I'm hoping the 7-band of the ABM500 will be a worthy replacement).

[JTUK]

I disliked the Graphic EQ on TE but found it was acceptable on the Valve heads.

On SS, the overall sound was too brittle and spikey to my ears... but I do think they ( TE) as a brand raised the bar at the time...

[thodrik]

I'm got one of the G7 SM300 combos, which has served me well over a ten year period. Had to change the speaker last year which was the first thing that went wrong. My pet cat tended to use it as a scratching post though, due to the carpet finish.

I've never tried the 'classic' 1980s Trace gear, so can't comment on it, but I consider the new Trace cabs to be fairly functional. I'm using the 1028H and the 1518 and I'm very happy with the sound I'm getting. Also, the new cabs are very light when compared to the Kamen and Gibson era stuff. The 2x10 is pretty much a one-hander, for short distances anyway!

[Musicman20]

I agree we all want bottom end, but I really don't want a muffled reggae/dub type low end. Some players love it, and it 'feels' great when you hear it live, but I love that sound of a cutting bass. Again, sometimes this changes....P bass with tone down, little more bass on amp = lovely.

The only graphic I got on with was Trace. Sometimes it did feel sterile though...but once you messed around a little it suddenly felt right.

I must admit I am not of fan of pre-shapes, lots of buttons, loads of options. Hence why my amps sounded good as soon as I plugged in, (with the Orange I barely ever move the EQ...simple and awesome).

So yeah, the only thing with Trace was sometimes its amount of options! And, the amp heads weighed SO much. Never had a Trace cab, but I always enjoyed borrowing and testing them.

I hope they stick around and make more of an impression with their next line.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='576630' date='Aug 21 2009, 12:55 PM']I agree we all want bottom end, but I really don't want a muffled reggae/dub type low end. Some players love it, and it 'feels' great when you hear it live, but I love that sound of a cutting bass.[/quote]

Hang on, you're assuming that big bottom equals muffled reggae/dub. That's not the case at all! You can have tons of bottom and tons of clarity - that's what the Big One does, that's what my Acmes did (less midrange punch but a bit more air on top) and that's what any good PA system does. The reggae sound relies just as much on having less mids and highs as it does on having big bottom - that's why with the right bass and rig you can switch from funk to reggae vibe just by adding some palm-muting when thumb-plucking.

The reason that cranking up the lows without rolling off the mids or highs can cause many cabs to sound muffled is because they can't handle that much bottom and the THD increases which makes the sound boomy and messes with the frequency response higher up. But get a nice sounding cab and then add a suitable subwoofer and you can have immense bottom with tons of clarity, nothing like the sound you'd get if you tried to force those lows from the single cab.

Alex

[JTUK]

Alex

You gotta stop making cab questions a vehicle for pimping your cabs ..

or am I the only one who thinks this...??

[alexclaber]

[quote name='JTUK' post='576706' date='Aug 21 2009, 02:37 PM']You gotta stop making cab questions a vehicle for pimping your cabs ...[/quote]

In this thread the only mention of my own cabs has been:

"You can have tons of bottom and tons of clarity - that's what the Big One does, that's what my Acmes did (less midrange punch but a bit more air on top) and that's what any good PA system does."

The reason I stuck my oar in is that I regularly rehearse through an old TE 4x10" combo and I know what it sounds like and what it can do. And I like what it does - possibly the best old school 16th note fingerfunk sound I've had - but to claim it has big bottom is deluded (and probably an honest mistake because people simply do not listen - like they perceive a lack of highs as more bottom - you can't trust your ears until you understand your ears).

I was just googling to see if I could find an old TE catalogue I'd seen recently, which illustrated their various suggested rigs, including things like the 18"+10"+tweeter cab, and monster stadium rigs like 2x15"s+4x10"s, dual 18"s plus 10"s and the 4x5" bright box, etc. To wrap any brand up as "sounding like X" is inaccurate when it runs the full gamut from punchy but bottomless monsters like the sealed 4x10" combo, through honky but amazingly loud bandpass 10" combos, through enormously thick and deep valve powered 2x15" rigs to the hi-fi rigs of the day like their biamped stadium gear or even their BFC swansong.

What TE did do is advance the art of the bass AMP. They never really dug into the cab designs, lots of bright ideas but not the soundest acoustic thinking behind them, but still much better than most other bass gear in their prime era.

Comments like this are just ill informed: "even though my Little Mark 3 has got serious low end....you cannot beat the sound of those full weight amps/cabs. Sometimes, they are just NECESSARY!" If that is implying that this old gear has something special about it in producing deep weighty lows, then it's plain wrong.

I know it's not easy describing tone in words - most bassists couldn't even tell the difference between a 40Hz and 80Hz tone, so once you get into talking about fat bottom, punchy mids, etc, what hope is there?

Alex

[Musicman20]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='576743' date='Aug 21 2009, 02:59 PM']In this thread the only mention of my own cabs has been:

"You can have tons of bottom and tons of clarity - that's what the Big One does, that's what my Acmes did (less midrange punch but a bit more air on top) and that's what any good PA system does."

The reason I stuck my oar in is that I regularly rehearse through an old TE 4x10" combo and I know what it sounds like and what it can do. And I like what it does - possibly the best old school 16th note fingerfunk sound I've had - but to claim it has big bottom is deluded (and probably an honest mistake because people simply do not listen - like they perceive a lack of highs as more bottom - you can't trust your ears until you understand your ears).

I was just googling to see if I could find an old TE catalogue I'd seen recently, which illustrated their various suggested rigs, including things like the 18"+10"+tweeter cab, and monster stadium rigs like 2x15"s+4x10"s, dual 18"s plus 10"s and the 4x5" bright box, etc. To wrap any brand up as "sounding like X" is inaccurate when it runs the full gamut from punchy but bottomless monsters like the sealed 4x10" combo, through honky but amazingly loud bandpass 10" combos, through enormously thick and deep valve powered 2x15" rigs to the hi-fi rigs of the day like their biamped stadium gear or even their BFC swansong.

What TE did do is advance the art of the bass AMP. They never really dug into the cab designs, lots of bright ideas but not the soundest acoustic thinking behind them, but still much better than most other bass gear in their prime era.

Comments like this are just ill informed: "even though my Little Mark 3 has got serious low end....you cannot beat the sound of those full weight amps/cabs. Sometimes, they are just NECESSARY!" If that is implying that this old gear has something special about it in producing deep weighty lows, then it's plain wrong.

I know it's not easy describing tone in words - most bassists couldn't even tell the difference between a 40Hz and 80Hz tone, so once you get into talking about fat bottom, punchy mids, etc, what hope is there?

Alex[/quote]

We are only stating from our opinions. I have little experience with the highly technical side of how an amp/cab works I'm afraid. Bass playing is a massive part of my life, but I leave the technical side to the designers....as im not being paid to look into it; that side of my life is already hugely complex as I am training in my legal profession.

I don't think my comment was ill informed in the slightest, maybe just not qualified. Some of these old design amps/cabs do just sound right to me, even if that might be a psychological effect. And, as much as specs are specs, we all know the LM3 has serious arse kicking low end compared to most lightweight amps....there are tons of threads on Tbass about this. Thats why I bought it.

This old gear, to me, especially Trace, does sound right, hence why thousands of people love what they do. I will still buy heavy amps and cabs no matter what light gear I buy, whcih I will buy! And, to quote a few experts on talkbass, you do lose something, every so slighty, with neo speakers. Thats why Ive seen a few guys buy neo cabs like the AE410 and then switch to the HS410.Whether you do or you dont on a scientific level, its what the listener/player thinks. I'd prefer to keep it to a test of my ears....I have A/B'd a few neo and ceramic cabs, and the ceramic edged it....but we will all have some sort of opinion.

That Trace 4x10 might not have huge bottom end, but it does have a fair whack. I don't like 'huge' bottom end from my cab setup, I like a 'normal' amount. Whether this is down to the fact all my favourite players tend to have an aggressive cutting sound I just don't know.

When I did hammer the lows up with the Orange 1x15, it sounded very very special....but I wouldnt use that much low for gigging, unless Metallica asked me to join. LOL.

Its all just tastes I guess

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='576898' date='Aug 21 2009, 05:16 PM']And, to quote a few experts on talkbass, you do lose something, every so slighty, with neo speakers. Thats why Ive seen a few guys buy neo cabs like the AE410 and then switch to the HS410.[/quote]

The thing when comparing cabs is you can never compare a cab with speakers with neo magnets to a cab with identical speakers with ferrite magnets because they don't exist.

The HS410 is a very interesting case in point because that's a High Sensitivity design (hence the name), which means it has shorter voice coils to increase the sensitivity at the expense of excursion limited power handling. This means it needs fewer watts to get loud but that it can't get as loud. Very good design for valve amps where you need to make the most from every watt and you haven't got enough power to push them much beyond Xmax. If you try an HT210 you'll notice that it sounds nothing like the HS210/410 - deeper lows, less strong midrange, smoother highs - and it needs more power to get loud but can handle more power and thus move more air. Why? Longer excursion heavier cone drivers. And that too has ferrite magnets. The AE210/410 on the other hand sit halfway between tonally, partly because at the moment you can't get a neo 10" from Eminence with such high excursion. And that cab has neo magnets.

Magnet material is the last thing you need to worry about when considering tone.

Alex

[4000]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='575113' date='Aug 20 2009, 09:08 AM']I've used those old TE 4x10" combos a lot. They're very punchy, thick midrange, nice highs. However they don't have much bottom at all - try and stick some reggae through them and they just get grindier/growlier as they overdrive. If you like that sound they're great but they're very much a one trick pony - great rock sound due to the growly midrange, shy lows and sweet but not shiny highs, plus quite a lot of natural compression.

Alex[/quote]


You've pretty much summed up what I like about the old (pre-kevlar) TE gear. My old 4x10 was essentially like the sealed 4x10 combo but with the physical depth of a separate Trace 4x10. I used to roll most of the bottom off; the first 2 sliders on my old AH150 graphic were completely off when using my Rics. Of course different basses required different eq; I didn't necessarily do that when using the Statii or Jaydees I had at the time.

One day I'll have to try a Trace head through the Compact; I'd be very interested to see how it sounds.

[goingdownslow]

From the TE SMX series manual:-
"The OUTPUT LEVEL control is used to set the stage volume of the amplifier, this will normally end up being set at between [b]3 and 4[/b] on the scale with a TRACE ELLIOT output stage or power amplifier. This leaves plenty of available rotation of the output control in hand for when the unit is used to run non standard power amps that require a higher level signal input to drive them.
However if you are using a TRACE ELLIOT output stage or power amp then please note that beyond about [b]4[/b] on this scale your amplifier will almost certainly be running into clipping."

Did this apply to all TE series amplifiers?
If so,
[quote name='Low End Bee' post='574399' date='Aug 19 2009, 04:33 PM']Easily competes with 2 loud guitarists with the volume at 3-4/10.[/quote] was because it was almost flat out.

[alexclaber]

I also used a TE410 combo when jamming with a nascent groove-rock-metal kind of band. Eb tuning, guitarist using the heaviest strings I've ever seen on a guitar - they felt like bass strings - me on my '87 Streamer and a very Bonham-esque drummer. Oh, and one of those singer things. At the time I always used to take my rig with me so it was a novelty using something else. Two things amazed me - firstly I'd never heard such punch from a bass rig and secondly that even when I tried adding a ton of boost with my onboard preamp the sound hardly got deeper/fatter at all - it was like it was oblivious to EQ, kind of "I'm making a damned good sound and I'm not having you change it." Worked really well for that band!

Alex

[Musicman20]

[quote name='goingdownslow' post='576939' date='Aug 21 2009, 06:07 PM']From the TE SMX series manual:-
"The OUTPUT LEVEL control is used to set the stage volume of the amplifier, this will normally end up being set at between [b]3 and 4[/b] on the scale with a TRACE ELLIOT output stage or power amplifier. This leaves plenty of available rotation of the output control in hand for when the unit is used to run non standard power amps that require a higher level signal input to drive them.
However if you are using a TRACE ELLIOT output stage or power amp then please note that beyond about [b]4[/b] on this scale your amplifier will almost certainly be running into clipping."

Did this apply to all TE series amplifiers?
If so,
was because it was almost flat out.[/quote]

Im pretty sure my SMX400 had lots of steam left after 3-4 on the output volume control.

[alexclaber]

A lot of bass amps seem to hit full power fairly early in the knob travel. However, you need to consider them as gain knobs, not volume knobs. So your bass produces an output voltage which varies between 0V (in between notes) and about 1V (sometimes higher but rarely that much more). Obviously this output voltage depends on how loud you play the note. The input gain then adds some more voltage, whilst EQ boost will add more. Then the master volume adds more gain, effectively adjusting the sensitivity of the power amp stage. The louder your bass and the higher you run the input/preamp gain, the sooner the master volume will hit clipping. The quieter your bass or the lower you run the preamp gain, the later the master volume will cause the power amp to clip.

Also your playing technique has a huge effect on this - your dynamic control particularly - and your tonal preference. If you like any degree of growl or grind you can get away with quite a lot of power amp clipping (that's the characteristic GK growl).

A lot of people talk about their amp having tons of headroom but such a situation is very rare, uncompressed bass guitar is so dynamic and bands are so loud that, unless you take a massive quantity of speakerage with you, you will end up clipping or hitting the limiters. Fortunately that's an inherent part of the sound of bass guitar - such growl and compression is often a good thing!

Alex

[JTUK]

I have pretty well AB'd Neo and Ceramics in the same cab and I would say that Neo's run with less bass in that situation.
I regard the experiment as sucessful as I have the 15" cab for the lower end.

My friend also did the same thing and came to the same conclusion only wants to run the 2x10 as a standalone..

If I am looking for a new 2x10 and I wasn't sure I could run a 15 underneath, then I would demo Neo's in context and that would mean I would run them very loud in test.
I wouldn't rule them out by any means, but being Neo or not wouldn't in itself be the deal-breaker..for me.
And, as far as 10 " speakers go...weight would not be the issue, the sound of course, would...as in everything.

I would also sacrifice sensitivty and loudness for tone... everytime. It is easier to add volume than get tone that just might not be there in some cabs.

As for sound cutting through... some guys tone has no chance of beating a decent Boogie or Twin....let alone a stack...
This is not a derogatory thing, this is about sound preference etc...
Other guys will cut through like a knife... but you can bet that these sounds will not be all things to all men.

[BigAlonBass]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='576948' date='Aug 21 2009, 06:13 PM']Im pretty sure my SMX400 had lots of steam left after 3-4 on the output volume control.[/quote]
I depped with a Rock Band a couple of weeks ago, and after setting my old Trace (AH350X) to it's normal "4" was asked to turn it up during the soundcheck, because it wan't quite cutting through. (No P.A. support) I flipped it up to "7" and the Vocalist bent double, clapped his hands to his ears, and said (quote) "Jesus F*ckin'Christ, I nearly sh*t myself, Turn it back down, man!" For the rest of the Gig, I settled on "5" and everyone was happy, so on personal experience, it doesn't run out of steam after "4".

(Edit to say that I'm using a 1x15" cab and a 2x12" cab with it.)

Edited August 22, 2009 by BigAlonBass

[Musicman20]

[quote name='BigAlonBass' post='577378' date='Aug 22 2009, 09:41 AM']I depped with a Rock Band a couple of weeks ago, and after setting my old Trace (AH350X) to it's normal "4" was asked to turn it up during the soundcheck, because it wan't quite cutting through. (No P.A. support) I flipped it up to "7" and the Vocalist bent double, clapped his hands to his ears, and said (quote) "Jesus F*ckin'Christ, I nearly sh*t myself, Turn it back down, man!" For the rest of the Gig, I settled on "5" and everyone was happy, so on personal experience, it doesn't run out of steam after "4".

(Edit to say that I'm using a 1x15" cab and a 2x12" cab with it.) [/quote]

Agreed!

[witterth]

[quote name='Paul S' post='575296' date='Aug 20 2009, 11:18 AM']Has anyone ever lived with the 1818 cab? It sounds huge but I wonder if it is too heavy to be practical - be nice to hear from anyone who had/has one.[/quote]
I have a 2x18 and 2x10 series v which is languishing in a pub cellar (probably still)
the cabs were bought for me when a particular band I was in had a deal . I really havent the space or back to deal with them any more though the crew at the time didnt really complain about the 2x18.
Im not even sure they still work they could go to the happy home of any one who wants them or can help me with a 4x10/1x15 set of cabs (v.vi) that may be blown. I may need replacement speakers and dont really know where to turn.
replacement sreakers would need to have the same location screws to fit the cabs
The markV AH 500 gp 11 is built like a cheiftan tank and is equally as heavyas one but sounds mint with (working) trace elliot cabs.
Can any one help or advise?
or should I post else where(first time poster)

[gazhowe]

I've been using a Trace AH400SMX with Mesa Boogie 1x15 and 2x10 for some time now and it's the happiest I have been with my sound (I've been playing a MM Stingray through it).

The odd thing for me about this amp is that it's built to be rack mounted but the air intake fan is on the side of the amp, making it necessary to cut a hole in the side of my rack case to allow the fan to work as efficiently as possible. Anyone know why they were built like this?

[Musicman20]

[quote name='gazhowe' post='579402' date='Aug 24 2009, 07:05 PM']I've been using a Trace AH400SMX with Mesa Boogie 1x15 and 2x10 for some time now and it's the happiest I have been with my sound (I've been playing a MM Stingray through it).

The odd thing for me about this amp is that it's built to be rack mounted but the air intake fan is on the side of the amp, making it necessary to cut a hole in the side of my rack case to allow the fan to work as efficiently as possible. Anyone know why they were built like this?[/quote]

I left mine in its green carpeted case...never took it out. It was dusty as hell near the fan but I couldnt get in to clean.

It never had any issues....bit weird placement though.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='gazhowe' post='579402' date='Aug 24 2009, 07:05 PM']The odd thing for me about this amp is that it's built to be rack mounted but the air intake fan is on the side of the amp, making it necessary to cut a hole in the side of my rack case to allow the fan to work as efficiently as possible. Anyone know why they were built like this?[/quote]

There's quite a lot of rackmount gear like this. It's rarely a problem because there's usually an inch or two of clearance between the side of the amp and the rack (due to the width added by the ears) unless the exhaust also vents into the rack (so the rack temperature escalates and the warm air starts cycling). My Mackie M1400 had the intake on the front and exhausts on the sides but I suspect it would have run cooler if the fan direction had been reversed. My QSC PLX has the intake at the rear and exhaust at the front which makes more sense. GK 700/1001 amps have the fan (intake?) on the top which is much more likely to cause racking problems.

Alex

[KineticX49]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='576948' date='Aug 21 2009, 06:13 PM']Im pretty sure my SMX400 had lots of steam left after 3-4 on the output volume control.[/quote]
My early 80's TE AH250 head has an indicator for the clipping 'Increase gain - OK - Decrease gain'. with the gain at 5/10 it was just hitting OK. Below that it pretty much always says increase gain .

I play that head with a early 80's TE 4x10" cab and it is punchy as anything (Even makes my rubbish EMG soapbars have some decent midrange) and certainly doesn't lack low end, if it did I'd add a 1x15/18" cab.

It is heavy as F*CK though. Both the head and cab.

Note: I say early 80's because I forget when it was originally bought, think it was '82 though.

Edited August 24, 2009 by KineticX49