Graphiteneckchat - calling all graphite neck enthusiasts!

[Kiwi]

Regular BCers will already know how enthusiastic I am about graphite necked basses, having owned examples by all the major manufacturers since the late seventies.  Since Status and Moses stopped making graphite necks, noone seems to be stepping in for the after market, so for the last three months I've been working on potential ways to keep offering aftermarket graphite necks to guitar and bass playing enthusiasts.

I'm at the point now where the the technical side of feasibility has been worked out as you'll see in the ad I have for five prototype headless necks here.  So the next question to answer is about commercial feasibility and I was hoping BC'ers might be able to help me decide where to focus next.

 

I did have lined up SR5 and SR4 necks, specifically for preEB and EB Classic instruments.  (I'm still planning to install a prototype neck on my SR5 Classic and finally get the 5 string Cutlass bass I've always lusted after.)   But what if there was demand from other owners...?  Yamaha BB owners for example?  Or Modulus owners?  Or Sire?  Or maybe something else?

From a purely commercial perspective, I know there is a limit to how much people will pay for an aftermarket neck and there are bottom line overheads that can't be ignored either.  And you'll already be aware that making molds can be a labour intensive task.  So pricing has to somehow fit between those two constraints and generate sufficient volume to sustain operations.

So if I was to look at offering another kind of after market neck - where should I focus?  Have a look at the poll and hit the option that you would buy for yourself.

 

[itu]

Of all 4 string carbon necks I've played I like Status MM4 a lot because of its profile. Vigier Passion II has another good profile. This is naturally subjective, because I've heard someone to love Steinberger (feels awkward to me).

 

Five string is a more complicated topic. Most of the necks are with 17 mm string spacing and it is too tight for me. Modulus has thin and very playable neck but I never felt the spacing comfortable. I have found that spacing varies between 14 and 21.5 mm from bass to bass, and (18-)19 mm feels the most natural (to me, that is). 

 

I think that a 18-19 mm spacing allows tighter spacing, too, if the bridge allows it. But 17 mm spacing will never make 19 mm possible when the neck dimensions hinder it. 

 

Scale lengths, I like to be on the longer side, 34-36". But the spacing and neck profile are much more important to me. 

 

Why have I chosen graphite over wood? Environmental stability. No need to adjust. Black looks good. Matt lacquer feels good under the thumb. Tinting or the top twill gives a nice touch. And I don't care about suitability to some body or neck pocket dimensions. Neck is the thing and everything else follows that. 

(Brass or steel screw inserts, please.) 

[Beedster]

Biggest market has to be Fender Jazz in both fretted and fretless, followed by Precision and one or more Stingrays (depending on whether they are pre-drilled) 👍

[itu]

4 minutes ago, Beedster said:

Biggest market has to be Fender Jazz...

Which I think is so cheap: I would like to see shapes from other decades than 50's. I do not play surf. But commercially it most likely is the road to happiness. 

[itu]

4 hours ago, Kiwi said:

And you'll already be aware that making molds can be a labour intensive task.  So pricing has to somehow fit between those two constraints and generate sufficient volume to sustain operations.

A mold costs around £3000-15000. It needs some fixing, and its lifetime depends on the material (cheap and soft aluminium, or hard and pricey steel). Therefore the real price will certainly be higher than the given cost. And as the 4 string bass is the most common (90 % of all basses?), I would start with it. 

[Beedster]

18 minutes ago, itu said:

Which I think is so cheap: I would like to see shapes from other decades than 50's. I do not play surf. But commercially it most likely is the road to happiness. 

 

List a Status Graphite 4-string Jazz neck for sale on this forum and it will be gone within minutes at a price higher than its original RRP, simply because of both rarity and the vast number of instruments already owned that it will work with (Fender MIA, MIJ, MIM Jazzes and Precisions, plus many other brands). Cheap? It's simply good business sense. A lot of businesses go under because they fail to recognise the nature of the market they're selling into.   

[Bagman]

Best of luck Steve. Hope it goes well 

[Kiwi]

1 hour ago, itu said:

A mold costs around £3000-15000. It needs some fixing, and its lifetime depends on the material (cheap and soft aluminium, or hard and pricey steel). Therefore the real price will certainly be higher than the given cost. And as the 4 string bass is the most common (90 % of all basses?), I would start with it. 

For high volune mass manufacturing metal moulds are durable, but fibreglass moulds ca be used as well for shorter runs.  And there are other options for very limited batches. 

[Beedster]

2 hours ago, itu said:

I would like to see shapes from other decades than 50's. I do not play surf

 

Always struck me that with graphite necks, given the cost or manufacture the relatively limited marketplace per instrument - Fender Jazz excluded  - that a modular headstock design is a route worth exploring, essentially a headless neck with either some prongs or inserts that will take a range headstocks of the major designs (Fender/EBMM as well as more niche options such as Wal, Warwick, Sandberg). If it were wood the join would be way too vulnerable to stress/impact, much less so with graphite? 

[Doctor J]

Another Vigier convert here. No truss rod, a neck that just stays as it should regardless of season is a wonderful thing, so this would interest me greatly.
 

Starting with a Fender compatible neck makes sound business sense, not just for the amount of big F basses out there but the aftermarket parts realm mostly lives here too. Beyond that it gets into the realm of personal preference. My own preference is for 38mm nut width and Jazzish shape overall, banjo sized frets, no fretboard dots or inlays, just high-contrast side dots. The headstock would have to be somewhat sympathetic to the design of the bodies it goes into so, keeping that Fender pocket in mind, something spiky or oddly misshapen (hi Klos) might not work. I'd go for a tilt-back design too, regardless of overall shape, to alleviate the need for a string tree. Why progress one way but keep a workaround for bad design in another?

[HeadlessBassist]

I'd like to try a neck for one of my American Jazzes if you're going to put them into production, Kiwi? I assume the 'PEEK' material is similar to the Status 'Phelonic' fingerboard material?

[Delberthot]

I was pretty late getting into graphite necks.

 

I didn't know it at the time but when I bought my Status jazz neck a couple of years ago that it would be one of the last made.

 

After many gigs with it, I've come to the conclusion that just dont like wooden necks anymore. This is part of the reason I've been selling my basses.

 

Jazz, Stingray and Precision are probably going to be the most requested simply going by the sheer numbers produced.

 

Having said that, if I could get a neck for my EBMM Sterling 4 then I would be keeping it.

[Kiwi]

17 minutes ago, HeadlessBassist said:

I'd like to try a neck for one of my American Jazzes if you're going to put them into production, Kiwi? I assume the 'PEEK' material is similar to the Status 'Phelonic' fingerboard material?

PEEK is a very modern, durable, high performance composite matrix unlike phenolic resin, aka Bakerlite by those who were around in the fifties.  The other thing some of us discovered over the years of bass buying is that phenolic can be fairly tricky to mix.  I've had a number of basses, with necks all made by the same company, where the phenolic resin fingerboards didn't cure stiff enough.  PEEK and wood avoid this issue entirely.

 

If you vote in the poll, it'll help show me where preferences lie.

[Wolverinebass]

I think that most people will go for the Fender replacement, even though, Klos do a decent one. I have one.

 

If I could get a neck made to the exact spec I wanted that would be it. The main sticking point is that everyone tends to do less than 42mm nut width. Modulus wouldn't even entertain doing anything other than 40mm. Neither does Geoff Gould or Bogart.

 

To me, it's full custom the whole way.

[itu]

13 hours ago, Beedster said:

List a Status Graphite 4-string Jazz neck for sale on this forum and it will be gone within minutes...

I bought an MM4 tinted in green with matt lacquer and no front markers. It has very good profile to my hands, and it is as wide as a P (checked this from Dawn). But they refused to sell any other headstock design. I had to ask for a Status neck (like a wide 5), but they said that all other neck designs are sold only as complete Status instruments. Fair game. 

 

I sold my first Status lined fretless neck years ago. It was a thin J that I didn't like so much, but this MM4 is excellent. 

 

I suppose @Kiwi has to specify the details, and then we'll see his selection of necks. Were the dimensions good or bad to me does not matter, his work matters and is super interesting. 

[LukeFRC]

for a business venture, I'm not sure how far away from the fender neck pocket would make sense commercially. We all know that the graphite necked stingray is probably way cooler - but sales numbers!

 

I've no idea about wood vs PEEK - I personally would go for peek as in my mind a manufacturer who uses synthetic materials to make necks make sense, where if I wanted wood I'ld get all wood - I guess it's how it feels, if PEEK/Bakerlight feels good it is good. 

[Kiwi]

2 hours ago, itu said:

 

I suppose @Kiwi has to specify the details, and then we'll see his selection of necks. 

I'm hoping to be guided by what people want then offer that up.  So the details will ideally be whatever people are used to in the standard instrument they are upgrading. 

 

BTW in the poll a completely custom option is also technically feasible but there are no scales of economy in the production process.

[Russ]

A few years back, I was very close to buying a graphite neck for one of my MM Bongos from Moses (complete with fibre-optic inlays), right before they made the decision to stop making graphite necks. Gutted I never followed through on that!

 

So yeah, I voted MM necks, but *all* MM necks.  

 

Oh, and (this might sound a bit weird) Status necks, for those out there who have a wood-necked Status but who can no longer get a graphite upgrade directly from the source. 

 

Maybe it’s worth reaching out to some of our BC luthiers to see if they’d be interested in offering a graphite neck option for their instruments?

[Kiwi]

2 hours ago, Russ said:

A few years back, I was very close to buying a graphite neck for one of my MM Bongos from Moses (complete with fibre-optic inlays), right before they made the decision to stop making graphite necks. Gutted I never followed through on that!

 

So yeah, I voted MM necks, but *all* MM necks.  

 

Oh, and (this might sound a bit weird) Status necks, for those out there who have a wood-necked Status but who can no longer get a graphite upgrade directly from the source. 

 

Maybe it’s worth reaching out to some of our BC luthiers to see if they’d be interested in offering a graphite neck option for their instruments?

I agree that these are all great opportunities and I have others to explore as well.  Branding is also in the works but generating some traction though initial sales is perhaps the most important priority to demonstrate the products are trustworthy...and if there are issues, least learn how far off we are and make some adjustments before committing fully to launching 'a brand'.

 

Normally big US companies like PRS would use their endorsers for feedback and product development because out there in the big wide internet land every concievable opinion is available on what works and sometimes these opinions are based as much on YT videos, speculation and echo chambers as much as real life touring experience. I don't have access to that level of support, however...

 

1) I can listen to opinions of regular folks on here who share my interest in graphite necks.  In my experience, BCers seem more likely to be grounded than the interweb at large.
2) Folks on here are probably a little more representative of the people who might buy these necks too.
3) I'm very comfortable with a more consultative approach thanks to stints working in local govt (and, IIRC a consultative approach worked for Rob Chapman too so why not explore it as an approach.)
4) It's something I'm genuinely passionate about and interested in!  A  well made graphite neck (like the one in my Alembic) offers effortless playability, confidence and a sense of control over notes that I don't find on offer as much with wooden necks.  But there are pitfalls to avoid too, as history shows us.

[Kiwi]

@Wolverinebass @binky_bass @itu @HeadlessBassist @nige1968 you voted for another brand but I can't see any brand names in your follow up posts.  Would you like to share what brands/models you were thinking of? 

[nige1968]

Hi Kiwi

 

Warwick, Ibanez, Spector.
6-string to fit 5-string neck pocket (I’m probably alone on this one)

EB SR4

Fenders (Mex / USA)