Trace Wattage, I Know, Old Topic, But...

[nilebodgers]

5 minutes ago, thodrik said:

I just love reading old Trace Elliot brochures describing the 4x10 combo as a 'portable gigging solution'

Lol. I’ve still got one of those (in storage) and it really is unfeasibly heavy. When I recover it I am toying with putting the amp bit in a sleeve and dumping the cab as it is unusably heavy all together.

[Stub Mandrel]

3 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

 

It`s amazing how far bass gear has come isn`t it. Way back when that weight was pretty much the expected, and whilst - imo - it probably sounds a lot better than the lightweight gear, it`s great we have the option nowadays. 

 

I'm not convinced the old gear is better, but it can be very good.

[stevie]

On 11/06/2025 at 11:50, chyc said:

So true. An obvious tell is when a manufacturer manufactures both active and passive PA cabinets. For some mysterious reason, their active speakers' amps are dispensing watts that their passive lines aren't rated for. 

 

QSC K12: 2000W

QSC E112: 400W continuous, 1600W peak.

It's even worse. The E112 contains higher spec components than the K12 - larger voice coils in both the LF and HF drivers. I'd guess an honest power rating for the K12 would be 300 watts. Problem is, if they published the honest rating, nobody would buy them because the competition are pulling the same trick. 😀

[BassmanPaul]

4 hours ago, thodrik said:

I just love reading old Trace Elliot brochures describing the 4x10 combo as a 'portable gigging solution'

In those days it was!! LOL

 

Edited Thursday at 17:39 by BassmanPaul

[BassmanPaul]

Just remembering my JBL days. A pair of 1x15 cabinets each housing a K145. These were topped off by four TL style cabinets each housing a K120. The rig was incredible and sounded even better. Load in and out was very tiring though!

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Kid stuff. When in college my bassplayer (I was lead guitarist, sorry...) asked me to design him a no holds barred cab to house three fifteens. I modified the Jensen Imperial folded horn to fit them. It stood some 6 feet tall, 3 feet wide, 2 feet deep. He made it from 1 inch MDF. We never knew how much it weighed but it took all five of us to lift it in and out of his van. We named it 'The Hulk'. 🫢 Entwistle would have been envious. 

[markorbit]

I toured a MkIV AH250 through a red stripe 4x10 back in the day. Wonderful amp although 20 years later I acquired the same model for nostalgic reasons and the sound wasn't how I remembered it.

I got into the SMX 12 band stuff with the tube and the dual-band compressor. That was my favourite preamp and I'm not sure if anybody has bettered it.

Power ratings are so unpredictable. I hear people complaining today that a relatively recent 300w Class D head is hitting it's limits. 300w seemed a lot in the 80s.

[Sparky Mark]

When my back was 30 years younger, I don't think I gave schlepping my 99lb 410 cab a second thought. I'm kind of assuming the majority of us are in the same boat.

[tauzero]

I did impose a 10kg per item limit on all my gear, PA included. I have breached that though, got a GR Bass AT212 which weighs a back-breaking 11.5kg, or about the same as a Trace Elliott handle.

[Lozz196]

1 hour ago, Sparky Mark said:

When my back was 30 years younger, I don't think I gave schlepping my 99lb 410 cab a second thought. I'm kind of assuming the majority of us are in the same boat.

Yep, was just part of the deal of being a bassist, Trace, Peavey, Orange etc all extremely heavy but that’s what was available.

[Stub Mandrel]

On 12/06/2025 at 17:22, stevie said:

It's even worse. The E112 contains higher spec components than the K12 - larger voice coils in both the LF and HF drivers. I'd guess an honest power rating for the K12 would be 300 watts. Problem is, if they published the honest rating, nobody would buy them because the competition are pulling the same trick. 😀

 

I bought some cheap powered speakers from Thomann. To their credit they give RMS power as well as the manufacturers claimed power. 

 

"Power: 600 W Peak / 140 W (RMS)"

[Stub Mandrel]

23 hours ago, markorbit said:

Power ratings are so unpredictable. I hear people complaining today that a relatively recent 300w Class D head is hitting it's limits. 300w seemed a lot in the 80s.

 

In the 80s/90s I used a 150W Laney Probass.

 

Imagine anyone daring to call a 150W head 'pro' these days!

[BassmanPaul]

On 12/06/2025 at 17:39, Sparky Mark said:

When my back was 30 years younger, I don't think I gave schlepping my 99lb 410 cab a second thought.

I don't think much of it today! LOL

[stevie]

On 13/06/2025 at 20:42, Stub Mandrel said:

 

I bought some cheap powered speakers from Thomann. To their credit they give RMS power as well as the manufacturers claimed power. 

 

"Power: 600 W Peak / 140 W (RMS)"

 

You can't complain about that.

[Stub Mandrel]

26 minutes ago, stevie said:

 

You can't complain about that.

They are fne as affordable monitors, I've used them as PA for talks and once as vocal only pa for a small gig.

[Count Bassie]

On 12/06/2025 at 15:49, markorbit said:

I toured a MkIV AH250 through a red stripe 4x10 back in the day. Wonderful amp although 20 years later I acquired the same model for nostalgic reasons and the sound wasn't how I remembered it.

I got into the SMX 12 band stuff with the tube and the dual-band compressor. That was my favourite preamp and I'm not sure if anybody has bettered it.

Power ratings are so unpredictable. I hear people complaining today that a relatively recent 300w Class D head is hitting it's limits. 300w seemed a lot in the 80s.

Power is measured differently than it used to be. The numbers get blown up and it seems like power just ain't what it used to be. It is, it's just sold "differently"... Advertising...

[agedhorse]

2 hours ago, Count Bassie said:

Power is measured differently than it used to be. The numbers get blown up and it seems like power just ain't what it used to be. It is, it's just sold "differently"... Advertising...

Not necessarily. I'm still measuring the same way today as I did in the 1970's and every product I have designed uses power based on RMS metrics and states THD. For MI applications, especially where the distortion harmonics components may be integrated into the signal in both the preamp and power amp, I have standardized on 10% because after a lot of test player contributed their perceptions, 10% was pretty much the sweet spot where most players liked both the tone and texture. The most common numbers I see for bass amps range from about 5% to 20%, depending on the application. For guitar amps intended to be overdriven as part of their native tone, 10% to 30% is more common. Of course, the amps must be tested and safety certified under these conditions if being honest.

 

For pro audio, the numbers are different of course, and as powers increase the duty cycle factors into the equation. This is most common at very high powered pro audio amps, where after a second or two, the limiting algorithms fold the power back to about 1/2 the rated power and in big powered speakers, the HPF may shift upwards and the crossover points may also shift along with the limiting thresholds. This was all started with Meyer, Renkus Heinz, Apogee and later with JBL, etc. This has allowed maximum performance with minimum damage and warranty claims.

[Count Bassie]

1 hour ago, agedhorse said:

Not necessarily. I'm still measuring the same way today as I did in the 1970's and every product I have designed uses power based on RMS metrics and states THD...

The guy who's been repairing my amps the last 6 or so years there me that measuring at 1KHz takes less power than lower frequencies, so the rated power brings a higher number. This is incorrect? 

 

[Downunderwonder]

1 hour ago, Count Bassie said:

The guy who's been repairing my amps the last 6 or so years there me that measuring at 1KHz takes less power than lower frequencies, so the rated power brings a higher number. This is incorrect? 

 

That is only relevant to speaker handling power at fequency vs volume achieved aka sensitivity.

 

Speaker Output at lower frequency suffers from lack of power handling.

 

Power is the integral of applied voltage over time x current / time. Aka average power.

 

Using root mean square takes care of the alternating current being negative half the time, so RMS voltage x impedance gives power. It is independent of frequency.

 

Adds up to your bass speaker can scream a 1000hz 250w signal for maybe half an hour, or whatever Agedhorse says, but drop dead in half a second with 30hz 250w.

 

 

[prowla]

(Hz & W)

[Count Bassie]

The math before me is like an irritating repellant before a garden-pillaging rodent. 😂

Ok, fair enough, I stand corrected.

Edited 1 hour ago by Count Bassie