Cabinet choice for Markbass Little Mark Tube 800 (and other aspects)

[LiturghianPope]

Hello!

 

As the title suggests, I am looking for some opinions on a cabinet choice for a Markbass Little Mark Tube 800 - for heavy music, low tunings mainly. I'm planning to spend around $500-$800 on it (depending on this discussion as well). My starting point would be this one https://www.thomann.de/gb/markbass_mb58r_103_energy_6.htm?shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ2IiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6NCwibGFuZ3VhZ2UiOjJ9&reload=1. I would like something lighter (and cheaper), but everything on 4 ohm is rated 400W (the cab outputs 800W at 8 ohm impedance) so I don't think that's a good idea. Even at 8 ohm the cabs are rated at 400W (the cab outputs 500W at 8 ohm). I'm talking about Markbass cabs.

 

Main usage will be rehearsal room. The lighter the better, second usage would be gigs (so maybe even 3 speakers is too big, still thinking about it).

 

However, on stage I usually use the amp's Line Out and so far had great results. I find it sounds awesome and even suggested the guitarist to try the same (buy an EVH head and use the line-out). Does anyone have any thoughts / experience with using line out for playing live? Have you encountered any downsides?

 

Also, has anyone tried the same cab/speakers on 4 ohm and 8 ohm for a tone comparison? For example https://www.thomann.de/gb/markbass_mb58r_102_pure_box_8.htm?shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ2IiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6NCwibGFuZ3VhZ2UiOjJ9&reload=1 and https://www.thomann.de/gb/markbass_mb58r_102_pure_box_4.htm?shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ2IiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6NCwibGFuZ3VhZ2UiOjJ9&reload=1.

 

So my main focus would be matching / optimization:

- matching power - ability to use the amp at it's capacity, without blowing up the speakers

- light enough to carry at gigs

- powerful enough for loud rehearsals

- metal tone (not even sure what I mean by this)

 

By all means, please let me know if there are even other things to take into consideration.

 

Thanks in advance, looking forward to your opinions / experience!

[Lozz196]

If wanting to keep with Markbass I think I`d look at the 104HR. A 410 that handles 800 watts (well that`s the advertised spec). I had one, with the 500 watt version of the LMT and it sounded great, plus at 22kg easy enough to move about.

 

You could get the 4ohm version to get max power from the amp but the more-clued-up-guys-on-here-than-me will advise that there won`t be that much difference in volume between the 8ohm and 4ohm versions of the same cab, but adding an additional 8ohm 410 cab to an existing 8ohm 410 cab if necessary down the line would make a huge difference (and look great too). So maybe the 8ohm version would be the better purchase. 

[LiturghianPope]

 

Thanks for the suggestion!

 

3 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

but adding an additional 8ohm 410 cab to an existing 8ohm 410 cab if necessary down the line

 

I was wondering in what situation would this be "necessary"? If we don't take into consideration taking 2 cabs for to a show (which I'm probably not going to do any time soon due to logistics) or getting the extra cab for looks (which I'd love, but it's probably waaay down the line after many other priorities), is there a chance I'd need an extra one for...rehearsals? I'm thinking I'd probably shake the building.

 

Also, I'm not necessarily fixed on Markbass, any suggestion that is lightweight, matched power with amp and modern/metal sounding is welcome. 

[fretmeister]

A Barefaced Super Twin would be just the job.

Bit more expensive though, but you mind find a used one.

[yorks5stringer]

Re the new series of MB cabs, they are so new very few have had a chance to try them: the cabs are now very very light and the choice seems to be neo or ceramic speakers with different costs accordingly.

[chris_b]

+1 for a good used Barefaced cab. The extra money will be well spent.

[Downunderwonder]

From the tone the OP is somewhere in Europe where used BF cabs may be thin on the ground?

 

What's $800 in € when buying from Thommann.de these days anyway? Very confusing.

 

A twin stack of the MB 210 cabs will do it all with the option to just take one when it's not going to be too rowdy.

 

Budget pretty much dictates used any way you go.

[Dan Dare]

Don't buy on the basis of recommendation, reviews, etc. It's a sure route to disappointment. Take your amp to a shop and try it with some cabs. I think you may be confusing amplifier outputs with cabs - you say "the cab outputs 800W at 8 ohm impedance" and "the cab outputs 500W at 8 ohm". Cabs don't deliver watts (which are an imprecise measure, anyway). Amplifiers do. The only thing you need to worry about with your amp is to avoid using cabs with a total impedance of less than 4 ohms.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Dan Dare

[Phil Starr]

9 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

Don't buy on the basis of recommendation, reviews, etc. It's a sure route to disappointment. Take your amp to a shop and try it with some cabs. I think you may be confusing amplifier outputs with cabs - you say "the cab outputs 800W at 8 ohm impedance" and "the cab outputs 500W at 8 ohm". Cabs don't deliver watts (which are an imprecise measure, anyway). Amplifiers do. The only thing you need to worry about with your amp is to avoid using cabs with a total impedance of less than 4 ohms.

This is right. The most important thing is that you are happy with the sound. That's a matter of taste and I'm pretty sure nobody here has the exact taste as you or anybody else here.

 

I wont go into too much technical detail unless you ask but amps are measured on the maximum power they can give at the moment of the highest level of sound. Speakers are measured at the continuous level of power they can handle without over-heating. Speakers also fail if you ask them to carry too much fundamental bass but no data is available from the box manufacturers to tell you when this might happen. You could probably use a 300W speaker with a 500W amp forever without the amp blowing it. Your MB Tube has a volume control so you don't have to run it on 800W all the time 

 

You talk really sensibly about overkill with sound output and using a 4x10 and also about using speakers other than MarkBass.

 

One thing you may want to consider is whether to go for a full range, flat response FRFR speaker. Essentially one that accurately reproduces the sound of your bass and amp without colouration.  There is nothing wrong with a speaker that has a sound of it's own but it will always have that sound. If you want to always sound like you then try as many speakers as you can, if you want different sounds for different bands then FRFR has a lot to recommend it.

 

I've recently started using an LFSys Silverstone an FRFR speaker within your budget. My first step into FRFR and I won't go back to coloured speakers. I know the designer so I got a deal and bought two. One is all I'll ever need. They also make a second model with higher power handling but I haven't tried that one. @scrumpymike has one and might be the one to ask. LF Sys

 

Another way of doing FRFR is to use a high quality PA Speaker. RCF, QSC and Yamaha are the brands frequently tried I've used RCF and QSC and they are good.

[Downunderwonder]

15 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Speakers are measured at the continuous level of power they can handle without over-heating.

Usually at a 1kHz frequency that is fully unrepresentative of an actual bass guitar. If you send a real bass signal the low end content will destroy the speaker by over excursion before reaching thermal rated level.

[Ed_S]

My main cabs until very recently were a Markbass 104HR (square 4x10, 4R) for rehearsals, and a Barefaced Super 12 (vertical 2x12, 4R) for gigs - pretty much the first two suggestions you got, just the Super 12 is a product generation older than the Super Twin, but still an excellent cab.

 

I recently sold the 104HR and replaced it with a vertically stacked pair of Barefaced One10 (1x10, 8R each) as my rehearsal rig. The difference in clarity and the increase in control over the low end in the rehearsal space instantly proved to me that it was the right decision, even if it perhaps doesn't look like the obvious choice for a loud metal band. I could easily gig with those cabs as well (as long as the available PA was matched to the venue) and I wouldn't have any problems hearing myself on stage using the rig as my monitor, but they might lack a bit of visual stage presence in a metal show.

 

The Barefaced vertical 2x12 cabs are incredibly capable, sturdy, light, portable and look right on stage, so in the longstanding tradition of recommending what you yourself use, I'd keep an eye out for a Super 12 on the second hand market.

[Dan Dare]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Another way of doing FRFR is to use a high quality PA Speaker. RCF, QSC and Yamaha are the brands frequently tried I've used RCF and QSC and they are good.

 

This is appealing at first glance - FRFR (full range, flat response) suggests accuracy, clean, uncoloured sound, etc. However, unless you spend a great deal and use a lot of so-called FRFR cabs, I don't think it's practical for bass in the so-called "real world".

 

I have high quality PA cabs (HK and Fohhn). I've tried them with my bass. Close up and at modest volumes, they sound impressive, albeit a little bland. Perhaps that's because I'm too accustomed to "coloured" bass speakers, although I do use PJB cabs, which are at the clean end of the bass cab spectrum.

 

However, my PA cabs just don't cut it in a live situation, apart from when I use them purely as stage monitors and rely on the PA to route the bass to the hall/room. Even then, I find they lack that good old "heft". 

 

The specs of cabs that are claimed to be FRFR need to be examined. How is "FRFR" defined and between which frequencies? Where are the -3db or -6db points? At what volume levels and distance will they deliver true FRFR?

 

An extreme comparison would be with headphones. Yes, they will do FRFR at miniscule volumes an inch or so from your eardrum, but they won't fill even a tiny room and especially not with bass frequencies.

 

Many great sounding bass cabs are anything but FRFR. However, they work in a live context, where they have to compete with other instruments, drums/percussion, room acoustics and so on. Sometimes, coloured is your friend.

[LiturghianPope]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions so far!

 

@fretmeister @chris_b @Downunderwonder @Ed_S a lot of votes I see towards BF cabs.

 

@Downunderwonder Yes, I'm from Romania, and indeed haven't seen this brand here. Haven't particularly searched for it either. Hartke are highly popular and I think the vast majority when searching for used gear. Haven't looked on Ebay but I imagine shipping might be a problem. But why do say 'budget dictates used' ? Do you mean that at this budget there are no "good" cabs, and if I want decent results I should get used? I'm just asking because there are probably over 50 models on Thomann alone. Regarding currency, it's just indicative.

 

@Dan Dare Yes, I meant 'amp' instead of cab in those phrasings. To clarify my enquiry - I am asking for opinions as a starting point, and I'm highly interested in first-hand experience: what have others tried (in these parameters, for this usage, for the genre I mentioned) and who was happy and who wasn't. I'm also trying to make sure I don't buy one that will bottleneck my amp. Also, unfortunately, there are no shops with cabs in proximity and I haven't really considered travelling for this purpose. Fortunately, we can talk and share experience so I don't have to buy whatever the local shop in the town has  

 

@Phil Starr I haven't considered a FRFR. I believe those are intended for those who need a highly versatile sound for multiple bands (as you said) or for those who want to customize their sound, and are highly experimental and exploratory in nature (am I wrong?). But I just plug in to my amp and I don't plan to get too many pedals - so, I think that on the contrary, I need something that is colored, and offers me an 'out-of-the-box' type solution. I am aware that there are probably a ton of good choices and I'm just trying to pin down some of them. I imagine you're playing with a processor / modeler? Does a FRFR behave well in a simple, minimal setup?

 

@Ed_S Very interesting. So you're saying that nearly objectively (I know, it's a forbidden word) Barefaced sounded clearer than MB, in a somewhat direct comparison ? You're using it for metal as well, do I understand correctly?

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, LiturghianPope said:

Yes, I meant 'amp' instead of cab in those phrasings. To clarify my enquiry - I am asking for opinions as a starting point, and I'm highly interested in first-hand experience: what have others tried (in these parameters, for this usage, for the genre I mentioned) and who was happy and who wasn't. I'm also trying to make sure I don't buy one that will bottleneck my amp. Also, unfortunately, there are no shops with cabs in proximity and I haven't really considered travelling for this purpose. Fortunately, we can talk and share experience so I don't have to buy whatever the local shop in the town has 

 

By "bottlenecking" your amp, do you mean restricting? I wouldn't worry about that with any good quality cab. Solid state amps don't mind higher impedances (yours is solid state. The tube is only a small preamp tube). Just ensure that you don't present the amp with a total impedance of less than 4 ohms. Running into too low an impedance is more likely to damage an amp than a cab, especially at higher volumes. If you are able to obtain Markbass where you live, their cabs work well with their amps (as you would expect). A friend uses the MB 210 combo, which is excellent and produces a surprisingly fat sound with plenty of weight for something so small and light.

 

You don't need to worry about overdriving any decent cab with your LM800. The difference between the 500 watts of the LM3 and yours is not great, despite the apparent difference in power output. It will be obvious from the sound if a cab is struggling, so just turn down in that event. 

 

One thing I would suggest is that, if you wish to use low tunings, you may need multiple drive units to produce very low frequencies at any volume, as you need to shift plenty of air.

[Phil Starr]

1 hour ago, LiturghianPope said:

 I haven't considered a FRFR. I believe those are intended for those who need a highly versatile sound for multiple bands (as you said) or for those who want to customize their sound, and are highly experimental and exploratory in nature (am I wrong?). But I just plug in to my amp and I don't plan to get too many pedals - so, I think that on the contrary, I need something that is colored, and offers me an 'out-of-the-box' type solution. I am aware that there are probably a ton of good choices and I'm just trying to pin down some of them. I imagine you're playing with a processor / modeler? Does a FRFR behave well in a simple, minimal setup?

Mostly I'm playing with just a SansAmp but I do have a Zoom B1ON which I use with my duo, I just use one of the preset tones. I also plug straight into the amp and into the Silverstone sometimes and to me it sounds good, so yes my experience is that if you like the sound of your bass it does behave well. We all have differing tastes though, I like an uncomplicated sound. Your MarkBass is quite coloured already, I used to have an MB Tube500 myself and as well as a little tube compression you have the VPF, VLF options. I wouldn't say FRFR is experimental/exploratory or even exotic, just another option. We've been moving in that direction for at least 15 years. It goes hand in hand with putting most of the band through the PA as what you hear is what the audience hear. A lot of the cabs from Barefaced are pretty close to FRFR as are the Vanderkleys and a lot of other high end cabs

 

It's really easy to find out if you like the FRFR sound. Just use some decent headphones as they should have a fairly flat response. One think I quite like about making the change is I now get pretty much the same sound out of my studio monitors and headphones as I get through the PA and my bass cab without having to regularly reset the eq.

 

I'm not going to try and talk you out of a coloured cab though; decades of bassists a lot better than me have gone that route, I wish you well but if you want coloured don't buy anything you can't try with your bass and amp. Mixing colours at random always ends up with a cloudy brown.

[LiturghianPope]

1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

One thing I would suggest is that, if you wish to use low tunings, you may need multiple drive units to produce very low frequencies at any volume, as you need to shift plenty of air.

 

Wow, okay, fair enough, I haven't thought of that. I've just recently switched to 5 strings, it's not even a month since, so yeah there's plenty of stuff I haven't considered. Very good point indeed...

 

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

I'm not going to try and talk you out of a coloured cab though; decades of bassists a lot better than me have gone that route, I wish you well but if you want coloured don't buy anything you can't try with your bass and amp. Mixing colours at random always ends up with a cloudy brown.

 

Hmmm okay, so you're saying that just a simple guitar>amp>cab (FRFR) might be enough. I just have the bass (Schecter Omen Extreme-5) and the MB Tube 800 amp for now. I currently just output to mixer and then to PA (2 x Pyrit 15A). So it's supposed to be a somewhat flat signal chain after the amp, I guess (correct me if I'm wrong). I like the tone of the bass when I play alone. So I guess that if this setup outputs an 'uncolored' tone, then yeah, it's pretty cool. With the band, however, even with the PA's cranked up, I can hardly distinguish what's going on. There's a lot of muddiness especially low end wise.

[Ed_S]

3 hours ago, LiturghianPope said:

Very interesting. So you're saying that nearly objectively (I know, it's a forbidden word) Barefaced sounded clearer than MB, in a somewhat direct comparison ? You're using it for metal as well, do I understand correctly?

 

I mostly play power metal, so not the heaviest and lowest stuff out there, but still loud metal.

 

Speaking purely from my own experience, everything Barefaced that I've played has sounded clearer than everything MB that I've played. It's entirely possible that a MB 2x10 stood on its end so the drivers are aligned vertically might be every bit as good as the double BF One10 stack I've just switched to for rehearsal... I don't honestly believe that would be the case based on my experience of the 104HR, but I've not tried it so I can't say.

 

The closest to a direct comparison that I've ever done myself is my Super 12 powered by a LM3 compared with a CMD121p combo sitting on a NY121 extension cabinet; essentially the same amp head into two vertical 2x12 speaker arrangements. The MB sounded capable, but the BF sounded powerful. The MB stack went loud but started to lose definition and get "shouty" the more power you threw at it, whereas the BF stayed under control and retained clarity.

[TheGreek]

I saw this earlier. I'm not sure if this is a good BIN price though.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255912845007?hash=item3b95981ecf:g:BcMAAOSwSE1jtt2E&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoP%2BOoP9jgV7levd%2BIO6ayjOrFFaskNc1GsW6Scsr6fmuiFrxi4KXyjsZYaSe9l8sn8zNtWHhf36bUicwHp1%2B4j8PlG08aWfOR5gjhBJbR5apbFWR6YPgIGSaVtcKzsyUcxzvBJuQgjgf2kIQV5vcYJeIbVMwXhcXI1W%2F8sK4sl%2BCSd0NpKsErkj5PFYYxYyDzBMx5mvyKX28I3KKQyebFn4%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR9aG153IYQ

[Phil Starr]

25 minutes ago, LiturghianPope said:

With the band, however, even with the PA's cranked up, I can hardly distinguish what's going on. There's a lot of muddiness especially low end wise.

Just checking that I understand this, at the moment are you just going straight to PA with no on-stage monitoring and no back line bass amp? You currently have no speaker at all to go with your amp?

 

If that is the case then no wonder you can't hear yourself. The most important thing to hear on stage are the mids and you need to be in line with the speakers to hear your bass's mid-range.

[Downunderwonder]

3 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

 

You don't need to worry about overdriving any decent cab with your LM800.

That's a very dangerous choice of wording at the best of times, and then the OP is Romanian.

 

Absolutely there are decent cabs that won't take everything a LM800 can put out.

 

Then there's 

44 minutes ago, Ed_S said:

Super 12 powered

That's a more than decent cab! I think there's a used one in the classifieds for 900 pounds. 

 

Reading between lines OP has 800€ budget, in Romania.

 

Regarding 4 ohm equivalent of an 8 ohm 210 cab. That is only properly useful for when your amp is low powered and you don't need to get very loud. There's way more chance of blowing one of those to kingdom come with a powerful amp. Two of the 8 ohm versions used might be well in budget?

Edited February 11, 2023 by Downunderwonder

[LiturghianPope]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Just checking that I understand this, at the moment are you just going straight to PA with no on-stage monitoring and no back line bass amp? You currently have no speaker at all to go with your amp?

 

Correct. At the moment I go line out to mixer, and then to PA. Both live and at rehearsals. No cab. Only played about two shows with this setup, and as monitors I just used the venue's stage monitors.

 

 

[Downunderwonder]

9 minutes ago, LiturghianPope said:

 

Correct. At the moment I go line out to mixer, and then to PA. Both live and at rehearsals. No cab. Only played about two shows with this setup, and as monitors I just used the venue's stage monitors.

 

 

Tempting to not fix what isn't broken? Most of us would be very happy not to have to bring a cabinet with us like our Siamese twin.

 

Of course one day you turn up and the monitors are 1 10'' wedge each side so it pays to have a cab in the van.

 

What's the drummer doing?

 

I have heard that in Europe e-drums all the way to IEM silent stage metal is a real thing. Maybe in your neck of the woods turning up with no monitor amps is the new normal?

[Dan Dare]

3 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

That's a very dangerous choice of wording at the best of times, and then the OP is Romanian.

 

I also said "It will be obvious from the sound if a cab is struggling, so just turn down in that event" in the next line of my post. I guess if you want to find fault, you will. Btw, what does the OP's nationality have to do with it? I'm sure Romanian musicians are just as gear savvy as anyone else (including Kiwis).

[Downunderwonder]

16 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

 

I also said "It will be obvious from the sound if a cab is struggling, so just turn down in that event" in the next line of my post. I guess if you want to find fault, you will. Btw, what does the OP's nationality have to do with it? I'm sure Romanian musicians are just as gear savvy as anyone else (including Kiwis).

It's not always obvious when a cab is being stretched. In a metal environment it's even harder to hear when a cab is distorting, or simply fading from too much heat. If it was easy nobody would blow a driver.

 

A good rule of thumb is if you need to turn up and it hardly seems to get any louder the best thing to do is take a break and turn it down from there just a bit instead.

[Phil Starr]

9 hours ago, LiturghianPope said:

 

Correct. At the moment I go line out to mixer, and then to PA. Both live and at rehearsals. No cab. Only played about two shows with this setup, and as monitors I just used the venue's stage monitors.

 

 

That's actually quite a good set up if the stage monitors are up to the job, if they are at the budget end the sound engineer is often reluctant to put enough bass through for fear of damaging their speakers. I pretty much always take my own back line to a gig where I have no control over the PA. If the engineer gives me enough then I turn it right down but if I and the drummer can't hear what I'm playing I'm not left stranded. I guess that's what you want to achieve. A single 12  or a 2x10 is about as small as you can go for this and your budget looks good, very good if you go used. The trick is that you want to match the gig volume of the drummer. One of the critical things in good stage monitoring is the directional response of the speakers. Speakers without a horn are like sonic flashlights sending out a beam of sound in the mid and upper ranges. They need to point to your ears if possible. A horn gives the designer much better control of direction but ideally the horn needs to have a low crossover point. Many older and cheaper designs have poor crossovers and horns which add a lot of tizz and hiss without adding much to what you need to hear. Better modern designs really help but these are the FRFR designs.

 

The other way is to get the speaker pointing at your ears so very tall speakers or stacks are great in this respect as are kickback designs otherwise get an angled speaker stand.

 

If the PA is really large and loud then there is often a problem with a muddy sound. Bass is omnidirectional so you'll get all of the bass from the PA and none of the top end. You can counter this by rolling off the bass frequencies in your monitors and boosting the mids to compensate.