Grimalkin Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 30 minutes ago, Osiris said: But if you were to use a compressor it would remove those overtones... 🤣🤣🤣 If I saw a bassist using G on the 15th as the root note for the whole bass line, I'd think it was amateur night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay2U Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 A not too aggressively set-up compressor only reduces differences in amplitude, leaving the waveform untouched. Too much compression may lead to mild clipping, adding odd harmonics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimalkin Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 Jaco's funk style with the dead notes, you want to play the dead notes louder and harder than the played notes to get that rhythmic feel and get them to cut through. That's going to be a problem for a compressor. I remember talking to an African bassist years ago at a venue I was playing, he played there too, very influenced by Bakithi, by Jaco etc. At one gig he was playing there he asked the sound engineer not use any compression on the bass, just for the night. Later the engineer came up and said: "Wow I could hear everything you were doing..." Indeed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 23 minutes ago, Grimalkin said: Jaco's funk style with the dead notes, you want to play the dead notes louder and harder than the played notes to get that rhythmic feel and get them to cut through. That's going to be a problem for a compressor. But that's exactly what a compressor does! See the previous links I posted. Anyway, nobody has to use one. But when used properly compression makes the bass (and all other instruments, vocals, drums etc) sound more consistent and allows them to sit together more evenly in the mix while still retaining dynamics, transients, overtones etc. As a result the whole sound is improved, so why wouldn't you use one? I often leave my EQ set flat but would never consider telling anyone they should never use an EQ on their bass. It's the same principle. Any decent sound engineer, and we all know they're a rare breed, and certainly studio engineers use compression all the time. But just because some bass players don't or won't use one it doesn't invalidate the idea or make it pointless. I use them all the time and if someone wants to believe it's like riding my bike with the stabilisers on I'll just have to learn to live with it 🤷♂️ 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimalkin Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 39 minutes ago, Osiris said: But that's exactly what a compressor does! See the previous links I posted. Anyway, nobody has to use one. But when used properly compression makes the bass (and all other instruments, vocals, drums etc) sound more consistent and allows them to sit together more evenly in the mix while still retaining dynamics, transients, overtones etc. As a result the whole sound is improved, so why wouldn't you use one? I often leave my EQ set flat but would never consider telling anyone they should never use an EQ on their bass. It's the same principle. Any decent sound engineer, and we all know they're a rare breed, and certainly studio engineers use compression all the time. But just because some bass players don't or won't use one it doesn't invalidate the idea or make it pointless. I use them all the time and if someone wants to believe it's like riding my bike with the stabilisers on I'll just have to learn to live with it 🤷♂️ Being able to play to musical dynamics is quite a part of what being a musician is. Take orchestras for example... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuzzie Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 Arrrrghhhh!!!!! The compression roundabout goes again!!! No one has a perfect technique no matter how good they are, but IF compression is used properly across all instruments in whatever band the clarity of each instrument and the mix can be perfect (or as perfect as possible within subjectivity). Properly used compression can help lead to lower volumes all around, ear fatigue lessens etc rather than volume wars which happens. Having great technique aids good compression to still let dynamics flow. A glass of Red now and again is good for you (in general), a bottle a day (heavy compression) is not. Orchestral music - yes live is a different beast compared to recorded (which I bet has compression), but, depending on the piece and make up you will have critical numbers of violins, violas, cello’s Double basses plucking vs bow, percussion, a plethora of horns and woodwind instruments (using mutes) pianos (using the dampener pedal) all hitting specific areas to create a mix as well as first, second parts etc. Again using it is a personal preference as is EQ, jazz vs P vs big buckers, play at the bridge be play at the neck, pick vs fingers………undoubtedly it helps, if done right and effs it right up if done wrong 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimalkin Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 6 minutes ago, Cuzzie said: Orchestral music - yes live is a different beast compared to recorded (which I bet has compression), but, depending on the piece and make up you will have critical numbers of violins, violas, cello’s Double basses plucking vs bow, percussion, a plethora of horns and woodwind instruments (using mutes) pianos (using the dampener pedal) all hitting specific areas to create a mix as well as first, second parts etc. Mutes and dampers are an integral part of the instrument. Not external compression. I don't see orchestras using compression... and I've seen enough of them. They all know how to play to dynamics, that's part of the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimalkin Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuzzie Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 @Grimalkin you are getting the wrong end of the stick - when I was using a mute on my cornet or saxophone, or a fist in the French horn that is not integral - it’s an external addition to allow a sound to balance withe others when those instruments had to take a back seat - very difficult to play brass quietly, believe me! we are talking about compression for balance not for killing. Orchestra is not the best example, for a start most concert halls if properly designed are done to allow balance, if choirs are involved (been there) then they will be Mic’d and balanced (probably some compression) with the instruments. Many newer orchestral halls are using PA’s alongside natural Flow to make an even spread around all seats (if done right!) Live recordings of orchestra music which is what most microphones are there for, you can bet when mixed to be released will be compressed a little no matter how good the orchestra is. Many orchestras/mini orchestras are playing alongside electric instruments and having to go through a PA, and guess what will happen……. No one except crap application is trying to get rid of dynamics 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuzzie Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 12 minutes ago, Grimalkin said: Beautiful piece and playing - even the compression You Tube put on it didn’t lessen my joy of the dynamics 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 3 hours ago, Grimalkin said: 8.46 - 9.00. I'm not the first person to think there was something up with the playback @ 8.52. That's dynamic control: Fair play, this is quite a track! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuzzie Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 3 hours ago, Grimalkin said: 8.46 - 9.00. I'm not the first person to think there was something up with the playback @ 8.52. That's dynamic control: agreed - great track. Didn't Danny Gatton use a Fender Vibrolux reverb amp, or a Bassman Combo? If I remember right the Bassman has a classic ‘Presence’ switch which is post EQ in the power amp stage specifically acting like a mid to High frequency shelving boost control - sounds a little like multiband compression to aid his wonderful dynamics…. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuzzie Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Grimalkin said: Edited October 3, 2022 by Cuzzie Duplicate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 1 hour ago, Grimalkin said: Being able to play to musical dynamics is quite a part of what being a musician is. Take orchestras for example... On 21/09/2022 at 16:03, Osiris said: Can I respectfully ask that you give this a read - Killed my tone (ovnilab.com) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 6 hours ago, Grimalkin said: In over 30 odd years of playing as a job, I've found it's better to work on your right hand dynamics and touch than rely on the little boxes. I do agree.... but only when your right hand only has 1 job. If your right hand has to swap between fingers, pick, and slap then no amount of hand control will get those things to work in the same dynamic range. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 I don’t mind compression. We’re all different eh! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimfist Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 One word: context It matters...except when it doesn't matter. When is that? It depends. It depends on what? A lot of things. There are a helluva lot of musicians and rock bands through the ages who've made a ton of money without being terribly nuanced performers with a broad range of dynamics. Much of rock music is this. Likewise, there are a ton of world-class musicians who've made their livelihood in some part due to being obsessive about technique and dynamics. Much of jazz and classical music is this. Whether that's anyone's cup of tea is their business. There's lots of room in the opinion pool. One last thought: Compression in all its forms can be a wonderful thing. Rock and Roll! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimfist Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 5 hours ago, Cuzzie said: agreed - great track. Didn't Danny Gatton use a Fender Vibrolux reverb amp, or a Bassman Combo? If I remember right the Bassman has a classic ‘Presence’ switch which is post EQ in the power amp stage specifically acting like a mid to High frequency shelving boost control - sounds a little like multiband compression to aid his wonderful dynamics…. Chances are that if you're using any amp with a tube in it, you're experiencing some form of compression. For compression to exist, you don't need to have a box with the label "COMPRESSOR" on it. Not to mention speaker compression when those speakers are being driven hard, even by a very clean, high headroom solid state amp. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimalkin Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 8 minutes ago, jimfist said: Chances are that if you're using any amp with a tube in it, you're experiencing some form of compression. For compression to exist, you don't need to have a box with the label "COMPRESSOR" on it. Not to mention speaker compression when those speakers are being driven hard, even by a very clean, high headroom solid state amp. Yes natural tube compression, Jamerson used to goose his signal to get that from the tube desk at Motown. Running it slightly in the red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimalkin Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 4 hours ago, fretmeister said: I do agree.... but only when your right hand only has 1 job. If your right hand has to swap between fingers, pick, and slap then no amount of hand control will get those things to work in the same dynamic range. The idea is to have a lighter touch and let the amp do the work. Which is obviously a bonus for right hand technique. That allows you to have extra headroom, if you need to slap or pick. But it also means you have to work on muting more. On a scale of 10, I play at 7, leaving the headroom there that I may need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimalkin Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 6 hours ago, Owen said: Fair play, this is quite a track! Danny "The Humbler" Gatton. I like this old clip at Gallagher's Bar. Playing in front of the dart board like a proper fella. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, Grimalkin said: The idea is to have a lighter touch and let the amp do the work. Which is obviously a bonus for right hand technique. That allows you to have extra headroom, if you need to slap or pick. But it also means you have to work on muting more. On a scale of 10, I play at 7, leaving the headroom there that I may need. Try playing with fingers and then going to slap and have it within the same range. The fingers will sound great.... and the slap and pop will come hammering out of the cab twice as loud as the finger style stuff. Drowning out the rest of the band and ruining the mix. The thumb impact of slap has a very limited range as it is. The string has to be hit hard enough to make contact with the frets - so it automatically has a higher minimum volume than fingers do. But that contact also massively limits how loud that can be as it interferes with the natural decay of the string. If you thumb the note as quietly as you might for a finger plucked part you won't get the slap sound as the string won't hit the frets. So the dynamic range of slap is small - but that range has a higher volume than most fingerstyle playing. Effectively the lowest volume of slap is all louder than almost all fingerstyle. Lighter touch doesn't work in this situation as it needs a bare minimum to sound like slap that is much higher than the bare minimum for fingerstyle. I'm guessing you don't have to swap between fingers / pick / slap within a gig or even within a song? This is obvious to those that do. Edited October 4, 2022 by fretmeister 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 (edited) 14 hours ago, Grimalkin said: Yes natural tube compression, Jamerson used to goose his signal to get that from the tube desk at Motown. Running it slightly in the red. Jamerson used to show up drunk and play. While he was (possibly) making conscious decisions about his note choices (as in he was just playing and grooving) and I certainly don’t think he was giving tone and mixing advice to the engineers. A big part of what became the ‘Motown’ sound was the bouncing down of tracks which no doubt helped achieve ‘that’ sound as much as any real decision to make it a thing. Sure they had signature drums fills to ‘alert’ the listener it was a Motown track etc. Remember they were using the best gear they could get/afford back then and were making the best quality recordings they could. Apparently the Acme Motown DI box is a rebuild of what they had in the studio back then… https://www.kmraudio.com/acme-audio-motown-di-wb-3.php Anyway back to compression… it’s not for everyone. Edited October 4, 2022 by krispn Typos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boodang Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 22 hours ago, Cuzzie said: A glass of Red now and again is good for you (in general), a bottle a day (heavy compression) is not. Interestingly, and depressingly, a study was done by a UK university very recently that came to the conclusion that there is no level of alcohol intake that is safe, including the eponymous odd glass of red wine. As regards compression, I don't use any on my double bass (being acoustic I feel it sounds better without it), but with my bass guitars I use compression in all its forms from light to super aggressive as a means of tone manipulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 Our drummist is also a talented producer and MD (who'd have guessed for someone who started off hitting things with sticks for a living?), and he and I spent an illuminating afternoon working through compression with my bass sound(s) on my Helix. Turns out my previous prejudice against compression was entirely fuelled by my ignorance of how it could work, and the positives it brings... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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