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EU artists will need a VISA to perform in UK from 2021

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48 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Fingers crossed then. 

Well yeah. 

Funny though, and I'm not having a pop at you Lozz, is the perception of the EU as a single, external entity. This is the root I think of a lot of Euro-scepticism and it's mostly to do with how the press portrays "The EU" and the relationship we have with it and had within it. 

We were "The EU". Every time it was EU this and EU that, the press were actually talking about the UK and externalising it. People have never got the hang of the idea that the EU is a membership of individual and sovereign states who all agree to exist in an agreed and cooperative framework. 

As soon as we leave, bar a trade deal, "The EU" essentially ceases to exist for us as individual citizens. We must get used to that idea. Each member country is as it has ever been (and we we were all along) to citizens of non-member states, an individual, independent, sovereign nation. 

Spain is Spain, France is France etc. For us, their membership of the EU is irrelevant. People are still talking like we're still Eu citizens. We’re not. These countries owe us nothing. 

It's going to take some time for people to get their head around that. 

 

Edited by bigjohn
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36 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

No, I never said that either. 
 


 

You said

2 hours ago, bigjohn said:

Pretty much every detriment to the UK that's perceived as EU imposition is actually traceable in one way or another back to UK Government policy and has little to do with the EU in comparison. If you want to play the game of naming one that isn't, be my guest. 

By this logic, if pretty much all policies which have a detriment can be traced back to UK policy, only the UK has introduced policies that are to its detriment. 

This means, quite helpfully for EU proponents, that the legislative policy makers at the EU are absolved of any responsibility for any detrimental outcomes.

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1 hour ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

Ahh right, so only the ones detrimental to the UK come from the UK policies. 

Not my argument, or my conversation but I am wondering, are you deliberately misreading and misquoting everything he has said, or do you have a problem understanding? It seemed pretty clear what he said the first time you misquoted him, now it seems you are actively trying to misunderstand.

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2 hours ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

You said

By this logic, if pretty much all policies which have a detriment can be traced back to UK policy, only the UK has introduced policies that are to its detriment. 

This means, quite helpfully for EU proponents, that the legislative policy makers at the EU are absolved of any responsibility for any detrimental outcomes.

No. 

The legislative policy makers of the EU were, whilst we were members, literally us, the UK, in cooperation with all of the other member states. 

On top of that, any EU legislation that was applicable in the UK had to be passed by Westminster. 

This isn't political or a matter of opinion. It's just a description of how the mechanics worked and continue to work for EU member states. 

it is mechanically impossible for the EU to impose legislation on any member. 

 

Edited by bigjohn
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1 hour ago, ambient said:

That’s changed in the recent immigration rules though, hence this thread. 

Are you able to share what it's changed too please? 

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3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

A £110 billion creative industry is not going to be impacted, other than at the tiniest margin, by the introduction of visas for overseas musicians coming to the UK. The US has much higher barriers to entry, and I don't see any sign of its creative industry collapsing.

The gripe here is that the EU will respond in kind and that's going to mean the loss of work for UK musicians travelling to the EU.

This is a problem that a lot of quitters have, they over estimate the size and importance of the UK economy

The UK is not the USA…! America has a number of music industry hubs (LA, New York, Nashville, Atlanta, Chicago, Austin, Dallas, etc – these are just off the top of my head), all of which are currently more important than London. There is simply no comparison. The American market is big enough that it really does not need anyone else. If you look at the biggest touring acts in the USA over the past few years, there will be very few (if any) none American based acts. This is not the case with the UK and British musicians need to access the European market  on our doorstep in order to survive.

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1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

FoM changes will obviously have a broad impact. No one is debating that. If if didn't, then we wouldn't have had a massive national debate. Whether it's going to be for good or ill time will tell. 

Imposition of visa requirements on overseas creatives coming to the UK? Doubt if Joe Public is going to notice anything much at all, irrespective of what they have had to drink and how full their glasses are. 

My point was more that this thread might seem a bit niche for Joe Public, all of us are going to be affected. I don't see it as being a positive impact just yet and while it might settle over the coming years it won't be without its victims, I suspect, irrespective of how one voted or their politics.

Edited by krispn
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On 20/02/2020 at 18:02, peteb said:

But people are panicking, because they are already losing work! The perception is that hiring UK musicians will be too much hassle and too expensive. 

The final visa regime may not be too bad / expensive, but then again it could be terrible. Remember, it is Brit musicians who need the relatively lucrative EU market, rather than the Dutch lads who are laughing that they may be forced to go and play in Germany for more money instead! 

Interesting take on the EU playing hard-ball, but let's not get into the specific politics of it. 

Agreed, its not always or even often about facts, it often simply perception. If agents think it will be awkward or more expensive then that will be enough to stop the booking British acts. Mere perception is what brought us to the huge hole we are now in as a nation.

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24 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

are you deliberately misreading and misquoting

I've tried to include and respond specifically to his actual quotes, so I hope I'm not misquoting him. 

I may well be misreading him. I'm certainly reading into what he's saying, assigning motive, reasoning, logic how it aligns to my own understanding or beliefs.

I don't know mate, we're communicating via tiny screens in type.

It's almost impossible to be understood at the best of times and seemingly infinite ways to be misunderstood. 

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11 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

I've tried to include and respond specifically to his actual quotes, so I hope I'm not misquoting him. 

I may well be misreading him. I'm certainly reading into what he's saying, assigning motive, reasoning, logic how it aligns to my own understanding or beliefs.

ok, well, I don't want to assign malicious intent to something where none was meant, but the conversation seemed very bizarre

He said

4 hours ago, bigjohn said:

Pretty much every detriment to the UK that's perceived as EU imposition is actually traceable in one way or another back to UK Government policy and has little to do with the EU in comparison. If you want to play the game of naming one that isn't, be my guest. 

To which you said

2 hours ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

Ahh right, so only the ones detrimental to the UK come from the UK policies. 

I am not quite sure how you worked that logic out from that sentence, but still

58 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

You said

By this logic, if pretty much all policies which have a detriment can be traced back to UK policy, only the UK has introduced policies that are to its detriment. 

Do you genuinely believe that there is a logic to what you have said? If so how do you work it out?

Not only is it not a quote, it makes really no sense. He didn't say that and he clearly didn't mean that.

He clearly said that pretty much every policy which people believe was imposed on us by the evil EU is a policy that was created or approved by the UK government. At no point does that imply that the UK created all of these policies, or that noone other than the UK approved any policies or that the UK never makes policies that in its benifit.

Just because strawberries are red, it doesn't mean that everything that is red is a strawberry.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, bassbiscuits said:

Blue passports tho eh.... that’ll make everything better. 

Blue passports printed in Poland, or is it France?

Hopefully they’ve got the words ‘printed in Poland’ in a prominent place, in a bold font.

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2 minutes ago, ambient said:

Blue passports printed in Poland, or is it France?

Hopefully they’ve got the words ‘printed in Poland’ in a prominent place, in a bold font.

Made by a French company and printed in Poland of course. 

Like any of this is going to make any difference to anyone other than making our lives more difficult and things more expensive at best. 

Edited by bigjohn
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3 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

Made by a French company and printed in Poland of course. 

Like any of this is going to make any difference to anyone other than making our lives more difficult and things more expensive at best. 

I think that tells you pretty much how Brexit is going to work out for ordinary British workers! 

The real question is, will there be a tariff applied when the blue passports are imported into the UK?? 

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Just now, peteb said:

I think that tells you pretty much how Brexit is going to work out for ordinary British workers! 

The real question is, will there be a tariff applied when the blue passports are imported into the UK?? 

Yes of course. And that will be seamlessly added to the renewal price. 

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1 minute ago, bigjohn said:

Made by a French company and printed in Poland of course. 

Like any of this is going to make any difference to anyone other than making our lives more difficult and things more expensive at best. 

That’s it isn’t it? The new passport is in reality a sign of regression, and a loss opportunity and freedom. Previously we had the right to live, work, study, travel freely and retire in anyone of thirty counties, also to receive free medical care whilst there. We now only have those freedoms in one country.

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2 hours ago, bigjohn said:

No. 

Oh? 

2 hours ago, bigjohn said:

The legislative policy makers of the EU were, whilst we were members, was literally us, the UK, in cooperation with all of the other member states. 

Ok

2 hours ago, bigjohn said:

On top of that, any EU legislation that was applicable in the UK had to be passed by Westminster. 

Understood. 

2 hours ago, bigjohn said:

This isn't political or a matter of opinion. It's just a description of how the mechanics worked and continue to work for EU member states. 

OK. 

2 hours ago, bigjohn said:

it is mechanically impossible for the EU to impose legislation on any member. 

Got it. 

If I've been a little short with you I apologise. I may have also assigned politics to you. Again, apologies. 

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9 minutes ago, ambient said:

That’s it isn’t it? The new passport is in reality a sign of regression, and a loss opportunity and freedom. Previously we had the right to live, work, study, travel freely and retire in anyone of thirty counties, also to receive free medical care whilst there. We now only have those freedoms in one country.

It is. That is why I renewed my passport before the new one. I know, it makes no difference to my rights, I have still lost them all, but at least I can go through customs with a bit less embarrassment!

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14 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

It is. That is why I renewed my passport before the new one. I know, it makes no difference to my rights, I have still lost them all, but at least I can go through customs with a bit less embarrassment!

I’ve still got 7 years left on mine. I believe you can buy burgundy covers for the blue ones 😁

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Well, we appear to have drifted back into general Br*x*t territory again. The visa subject appears to have been comprehensively covered and is starting to repeat itself a bit. With that in mind, I think we can draw a line under it. 

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