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2 hours ago, Richard R said:
On 24/09/2019 at 15:24, Twigman said:

Bass clef is still a mystery to me ( I can never remember the stave).

"Good Bassists Do F*** All"

That's exactly the problem.

If you have to work it out, you can't sight read.

To sight read out have to be able to map dots on the page to frets and the mapping changes depending on the key your are in.

The only way I could do it is (1) work out key. (2) identify position of root note and either (3) work out each not relative to the root or (4) keep track of where I am in the scale and work out the number of steps up and down.

I have no idea how people can do that in real time!

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4 hours ago, Richard R said:

"Good Bassists Do F*** All"

This works for me. But as my bass teacher said when he had stopped laughing,  it may not be suitable to tell an eleven year old girl whose mother is paying for the lessons.

Definitely a good idea to have such a course.

That beats Good Boys Deserve Fun Always. 😂

 

Good Burritos Don’t Fall Apart!

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1 hour ago, Stub Mandrel said:

That's exactly the problem.

If you have to work it out, you can't sight read.

To sight read out have to be able to map dots on the page to frets and the mapping changes depending on the key your are in.

The only way I could do it is (1) work out key. (2) identify position of root note and either (3) work out each not relative to the root or (4) keep track of where I am in the scale and work out the number of steps up and down.

I have no idea how people can do that in real time!

This is not to make out that it’s easy, but reading music is like a language. With a lot of practice, you don’t consciously think about all the points you listed above.  It’s all automatic.  

I do appreciate that you need to understand this all at the beginning though  

As adults, we tend to question and analyse everything in the learning process, which might slow us down.  Children thought, generally just accept information and soak it up. 

It might seem impossible when you look at everything that is involved with reading music, but regularly practicing it, starting with very simple music at first, is key. 

I will put more details of my course  as it progresses. 

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4 hours ago, Bilbo said:

This is where you HAVE to start just DOING it. Every day. 20 - 30 minutes reading anything and everything. Start with something easy in C then F, G etc, adding one accidental every so often. It's a grind but it's the only way. 

So true, and true for many other aspects of musicianship. You are what you practice.....If you perceive reading as relatively important, then you need to make time to practice it, to be able to progress. And if time is limited, you need to be sure you're spending it wisely, or having some direction eg a teacher giving positive input. A teacher can't do it for you or help you find a unicorn but they can guide you and provide a useful pathway to follow.

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6 hours ago, Bilbo said:

This is where you HAVE to start just DOING it. Every day. 20 - 30 minutes reading anything and everything. Start with something easy in C then F, G etc, adding one accidental every so often. It's a grind but it's the only way. 

And that's the problem. It's a grind. And add to that, the fact that none of the music I play is actually written down and none of the bands I have ever played in over the past 45 years have used written musical notation to convey their ideas, the incentive for me to learn to read is minimal. There are so many other musical activities that I could more usefully be doing, that reading is far too low on the list.

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3 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

And that's the problem. It's a grind. And add to that, the fact that none of the music I play is actually written down and none of the bands I have ever played in over the past 45 years have used written musical notation to convey their ideas, the incentive for me to learn to read is minimal. There are so many other musical activities that I could more usefully be doing, that reading is far too low on the list.

You'll probably know if reading is beneficial to you.  There's no harm in NOT learning to, if you won't need it. If you're able to efficiently communicate musical things to others without it, great.

I say probably, because you don't know what you don't know. It sounds like you play in one particular genre - nothing wrong with that - but some bassists cover many genres, some of which require reading to be truly accessible.

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The fundamental question  is why do we want to learn to read. For me, it is not just about reading gigs, it is primarily about study and learning. Since I started learning to read in earnest, I have found the hundreds of books I have full of notes have become massively more useful to me. I am not reading Al Di Meola guitar parts with a view to performing them live, I am just getting deeper and deeper into the music and increasing my knowledge of the art form and the instruments I play. It takes me places in the neck I would probably otherwise wouldn't know and forces me to examine phrases and passages that challenge me. I now do a regular big band gig again and read for that. The number of passages where I get caught out are fewer and fewer which feels good and, frankly, makes me less of a liability for the rest of the band. I just think it gives you the potential to be a better musician that simply playing by ear. 

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2 hours ago, Bilbo said:

For the record, all readers also play by ear. It's not either or. 

For some it is read only. I play in two bands (jazz charts/big band/swing) with several university music graduates that also teach or have taught music in secondary schools and can all read like the wind and can improvise to a degree but absolutely cannot play anything by ear.This includes the reed, brass and keyboard players but the drummer with a similar background is quite flexible, but that is part of his job and he also reads well.

We play gigs and work on new charts all the time and these people can sight read some difficult charts. The good thing is that my reading has improved a lot just to be able to keep up with the rest of the band. 

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1 hour ago, Staggering on said:

For some it is read only. I play in two bands (jazz charts/big band/swing) with several university music graduates that also teach or have taught music in secondary schools and can all read like the wind and can improvise to a degree but absolutely cannot play anything by ear.This includes the reed, brass and keyboard players but the drummer with a similar background is quite flexible, but that is part of his job and he also reads well.

We play gigs and work on new charts all the time and these people can sight read some difficult charts. The good thing is that my reading has improved a lot just to be able to keep up with the rest of the band. 

But are they not using their ears to keep in tune and time? 

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4 hours ago, greghagger said:

But are they not using their ears to keep in tune and time? 

Absolutely, but I was thinking  of "playing by ear" in terms of hearing a melody and then playing it or figuring out a melody without having it written out. I would also include being able to hear and play basic chord change patterns like blues and many jazz standards without having to see them on paper. 

Edited by Staggering on
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3 hours ago, Staggering on said:

Absolutely, but I was thinking  of "playing by ear" in terms of hearing a melody and then playing it or figuring out a melody without having it written out. I would also include being able to hear and play basic chord change patterns like blues and many jazz standards without having to see them on paper. 

Ah ok, yes I agree that some readers can’t ‘play by ear’.  That skill should not be neglected either.

I personally think that playing by ear and reading music are both necessary and complimentary skills. If you can do both, then you will have a lot of opportunities with music. 

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They're both good to have but it depends on the situation you're in. In some situations, reading is irrelevant and playing by ear is critical; in others, its the other way round. And its fair to say that neither improves the other, except somewhat vaguely/indirectly. 

In the scenario I'm in: working with large groups (20+) musicians, with limited rehearsal time to get together and the logistics associated with that, relying on everyone to play by ear would be a disaster. So, everyone needs to read music and its a fast/efficient way to get things done and gig-ready.

But I can understand in a different scenario, playing by ear would be the way to do it.

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13 hours ago, greghagger said:

But are they not using their ears to keep in tune and time? 

I play in a concert band with lots of wind and brass instruments.  I learned to read with this band (they were very patient at first).  As Bilbo says, you only get faster and better at sight reading the more you do it.  I still struggle with anything faster than quavers!

In terms of the rest of the band, there are a lot of players whom I've noted can read well, but can't adjust if the timing goes awol or hear that the incidental they are playing is flat.

As the only bass player (the tuba players are intermittent at showing up) I like to add a little improv to my lines if it is a non-classical more modern piece to try and get the rhythm right for the original.  I think that is my right unless the MD notices it and tells me off.  He recently thanked me for adding bits to an Elton John arrangement to make it sound more like the recording.  

I'm not sure many of those that have only ever read and play ensemble instruments could do that as all they have ever done is read. 

I also note where many use dots to learn a piece - in our case, although we rehearse to learn the hard bits, I I doubt any of us would be able to play any of our pieces (no matter how many times we've played them) if the music was suddenly removed and we had to play from memory.  It is almost like a different technique - you whizz through the music without really taking a lot of it onboard.

Edited by Huge Hands
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42 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

They're both good to have but it depends on the situation you're in. In some situations, reading is irrelevant and playing by ear is critical; in others, its the other way round. And its fair to say that neither improves the other, except somewhat vaguely/indirectly. 

In the scenario I'm in: working with large groups (20+) musicians, with limited rehearsal time to get together and the logistics associated with that, relying on everyone to play by ear would be a disaster. So, everyone needs to read music and its a fast/efficient way to get things done and gig-ready.

But I can understand in a different scenario, playing by ear would be the way to do it.

I would agree in so far as in certain situations, one skill might be more important than the other.  But in my opinions they certainly compliment each other, and reading music is always going to add to one’s musicianship. 

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1 hour ago, Huge Hands said:

 I doubt any of us would be able to play any of our pieces (no matter how many times we've played them) if the music was suddenly removed and we had to play from memory. 

The total opposite of what it is to play in my band (or most [edit:originals] bands IME) - nothing is ever written down - everything is performed from memory (with improvisation if someone goes off track)....totally different ball game.

Edited by Twigman
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30 minutes ago, Twigman said:

The total opposite of what it is to play in my band (or most bands IME) - nothing is ever written down - everything is performed from memory (with improvisation if someone goes off track)....totally different ball game.

Hmm, I guess I've not noticed other people's processes in my bands but I've always listened to covers, charted it, compressed the chart till it fits on one page, then played it till it's committed to muscle memory.

So I do the whole thing, listen, hear, write, read, read, read, never read again. But then drummers... thick, right?

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2 minutes ago, caitlin said:

Hmm, I guess I've not noticed other people's processes in my bands but I've always listened to covers, charted it, compressed the chart till it fits on one page, then played it till it's committed to muscle memory.

 

We don't do covers - none of the bands I've ever been in have been covers bands.

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What good would it do if you could only communicate with your fellow English humans by sign language as opposed to communicating using a system of mutually understood words? That’s how I see reading music, you cannot share bass tab with a drummer (or indeed anything) 
learn it, but at a pace you can cope with. So a few key signatures, then one stave, then some rhythm symbols. 
Rome wasn’t built in a day, being unable to read music is having one hand tied behind your back

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1 hour ago, Twigman said:

The total opposite of what it is to play in my band (or most [edit:originals] bands IME) - nothing is ever written down - everything is performed from memory (with improvisation if someone goes off track)....totally different ball game.

Certainly true for the originals bands I've been in.

The covers bands, we evolve our own treatment. This time round complicated by access to so many versions of the same song. Transcriptions can be wildly different let alone the fact that many songs have multiple versions.

The main challenge for ANY song is not how to play it, it's  agreeing how to end it!

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