Muppet Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 The point of this thread was specifically around live sound as opposed to studio. Can you really pick out, in the band mix, mid song, the differences in bass tone between analogue and digital? I'll be buggered if I can...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Rich said: The way I see it, by the time my tone has made its way through the PA or fought for its place in the backline alongside the guitars/keys/drums/etc, the only fecker who's going to notice my overly deep filter sweep or bright distortion is me. Live sound is always a compromise really. 46 minutes ago, Muppet said: The point of this thread was specifically around live sound as opposed to studio. Can you really pick out, in the band mix, mid song, the differences in bass tone between analogue and digital? I'll be buggered if I can...... ^^ Yes! But I've also come round to the view that if the "only fecker who's going to notice my overly deep filter sweep or bright distortion is me" well that's plenty good enough reason if it makes me / us enjoy playing more. Where I draw the line is when my or another band member's personal enjoyment of these nuances of sound / tone gets in the way of the overall band performance / audience enjoyment e.g. because a band member is faffing about between songs tweaking his pedal board resulting in 'dead air time'. It's at that point the rest of the band needs to push back. And that's kinda exactly where we are with our guitarist and his analogue pedals, adjusting between every song (when he's not re-tuning his guitar or breaking his strings - which he did once immediately before the encore; he's been under a three line whip to bring a spare guitar to every gig since!) Edited June 20, 2018 by Al Krow 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 For me the joy of live performance is playing brilliant crafted songs as a band and entertaining the audience, and I'm not going to let a some discrepancy in my sound ruin that. With programmable effects my sound for any given song is exactly the same every time and if it isn't that means that there is something very wrong acoustically with the venue, which is beyond my ability to correct and therefore it is pointless to worry about it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinterMute Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 4 hours ago, CameronJ said: Lest we forget the piggy bank! Cheek! That's a limited edition Pink Floyd plushy pig from the V&A exhibition last year...! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinterMute Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 3 hours ago, Muppet said: The point of this thread was specifically around live sound as opposed to studio. Can you really pick out, in the band mix, mid song, the differences in bass tone between analogue and digital? I'll be buggered if I can...... Yes, which is why I used the Barefaced Big Twin T when I was gigging, as it's effectively a bass PA... In the days of Ampeg 8X10's I wouldn't have been so picky I suspect. What I would definitely be able to tell is that the tone is how I designed it to be, and when I played through other rigs, it didn't sound right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbass4k Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 For me, every digital multi I ever tried was boring, uninspiring and inflexible. They're a great option for probably most people, as they're all about utility. I love pedals for their creativity, discovering new and unexpected sounds is what I love and one of my big inspirations to play and it just isn't possible with multis. Nothing to do with "analogue" purism, as a lot of the really envelope pushing stuff happening at the moment in stompboxes is digital, the increasing availability and cheapness of DSP chips and the tools to develop for them has led to an explosion of really cool unique pedals, with people like Red Panda, Chase Bliss etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CameronJ Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 2 hours ago, WinterMute said: Cheek! That's a limited edition Pink Floyd plushy pig from the V&A exhibition last year...! My bad... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluewine Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 I think the multi-effects from Helix and Line 6 are great for recording. I'm still not hearing all the improvements in multi- effects devices for live performance for bass guitar. Maybe the improvements can't be heard, is it mostly funcktionality that has improved? I'm not hearing the " mojo" I hear with my analog pedals. Keep in mind, contrary to common belief, I don't hear so good anymore. I will say multi- effects devices for live performance for guitarists is fine. Just like I think , for a guitarist you can't beat tube amps. For bass, not really a deal killer. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 12 hours ago, CameronJ said: My bad... Thank you. You took the hit for me by responding before I had the chance to say "Peppa Pig". That would have been seriously embarrassing. IOU 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CameronJ Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 29 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said: Thank you. You took the hit for me by responding before I had the chance to say "Peppa Pig". That would have been seriously embarrassing. IOU 1 Any time. To be fair it was a toss up between piggy bank and Peppa Pig for me. I went with what I assumed to be the lesser of two shames 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 3 hours ago, CameronJ said: Any time. To be fair it was a toss up between piggy bank and Peppa Pig for me. I went with what I assumed to be the lesser of two shames Shrewd lad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamg67 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) For bass, I went through a stack of a analogue pedals (and amps, and a Sansamp RBI) before I got my fully digital / modelling MarkBass Multiamp. I sold all the pedals after that, it has better overdrive and filter as well as loads I never use, and the ability to get everything set up on presets. For guitar, I've just got an iPad + iRig + Amplitube now. Both rigs sound better than any combination of analogue gear I've ever had. I think both are better than the Line 6 stuff which I don't think has ever been better than average for modelling. I had a Vox modelling thing for a bit that I think was still better than the Line 6 gear, but not up to scratch with what I have now. The Multiamp was just the best buy ever, £600 ish second hand and that's a power amp, mulitple amp models and all the effects I'll ever need, and all as good as the analogue versions. I use it as a power amp for the iRig as well as for a bass amp. Everything is on presets, and with an SD card so I could set up another multiamp the same way in seconds. The iPad + iRig + Amplitube set up was a bit more money but only because I went for a new iPad pro. Still cheap compared to a lot of gear. I can't see any argument for using analogue gear now unless it's much cheaper than a digital rig, which it never ends up being. But that's up against decent modelling gear, NOT Helix / Line 6 which never has been the best. Edited June 21, 2018 by adamg67 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted June 21, 2018 Author Share Posted June 21, 2018 12 minutes ago, adamg67 said: ...The Multiamp was just the best buy ever, £600 ish second hand and that's a power amp, mulitple amp models and all the effects I'll ever need, and all as good as the analogue versions. I use it as a power amp for the iRig as well as for a bass amp. Everything is on presets, and with an SD card so I could set up another multiamp the same way in seconds. The iPad + iRig + Amplitube set up was a bit more money but only because I went for a new iPad pro. Still cheap compared to a lot of gear. I can't see any argument for using analogue gear now unless it's much cheaper than a digital rig, which it never ends up being. But that's up against decent modelling gear, NOT Helix / Line 6 which never has been the best. Very interesting and makes me want to have another look at the MB Multiamp. Have you tried out the new Helix or Helix HX in terms of A/B'ing against the Multiamp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 26 minutes ago, adamg67 said: But that's up against decent modelling gear, NOT Helix / Line 6 which never has been the best. Haha! That's fighting talk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinterMute Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, EBS_freak said: Haha! That's fighting talk! I've tried the Helix and the Pod XT Pro against the Kemper rack and the Multi-amp, what I observed was that the units designed specifically for bass were more flexible and therefore more useful than the "general" units that had some bass models in them, that said, I thought the models in the Helix were perfectly useable but needed more attention, and the Kemper was fine as long as you didn't stray too far from the original modelled sound. The MB was a cracking unit, but I didn't think it sounded any better than the Kemper or the Line6 units, it sounded different. Studio use of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Steve Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 the argument does depend on how complicated your set up is. One ex-lead guitarist of mine's set up was a tuner and a Tube Screamer (in fact a Tube Screamer 808 clone) - no matter how accurate a Tube Screamer impression your digital box is, there's no justification for it in that set up. In fact that had replaced an old (and quite poorly) Boss multi-FX board that he realised was killing his natural tone. Not that he's a luddite - his current band require a lot of different tones and his set up is now a Kemper amp, and the only effects he uses are the ones that the amp throws in. So, horses for courses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 I think what the comments in this thread boil down to is not whether analogue is better than digital but what are you favourite effects and what compromises are you personally prepared to put up with. Sound/tone is entirely subjective, and IME a lot of it is to do with familiarity, rather than actual quality (if that could even be quantified). I also think that term "modelling" does a lot of multi-effects (even the very best ones)a complete disservice. I don't know how close the emulations of the various effects, amplifiers and cabs on my Helix are to the originals (because most of the time I've never tried the originals), and in all honesty I DON'T CARE. All I do care about is that amongst the various different distortions/choruses/EQs there is one that will give me the sound I am looking for to fit into the band mix of a particular song at the particular point. Everything else is irrelevant. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamg67 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Al Krow said: Very interesting and makes me want to have another look at the MB Multiamp. Have you tried out the new Helix or Helix HX in terms of A/B'ing against the Multiamp? Ah, now, I should have said that I was looking at this stuff about 3 years ago, and looking at the gear that people had and that was in the rehearsal rooms. I'm sure the quality of the best of the mid range stuff will have gone up. The point I was originally trying to make was that the decent modelling gear I know about can easily hold it's own against analogue. As everything gets better that will be true of more and more digital gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamg67 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 1 hour ago, WinterMute said: The MB was a cracking unit, but I didn't think it sounded any better than the Kemper or the Line6 units, it sounded different. Studio use of course. I think it was the effects in the Multiamp that did it for me, espcially drive, pitch and filter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Steve Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 39 minutes ago, BigRedX said: I think what the comments in this thread boil down to is not whether analogue is better than digital but what are you favourite effects and what compromises are you personally prepared to put up with. Sound/tone is entirely subjective, and IME a lot of it is to do with familiarity, rather than actual quality (if that could even be quantified). I also think that term "modelling" does a lot of multi-effects (even the very best ones)a complete disservice. I don't know how close the emulations of the various effects, amplifiers and cabs on my Helix are to the originals (because most of the time I've never tried the originals), and in all honesty I DON'T CARE. All I do care about is that amongst the various different distortions/choruses/EQs there is one that will give me the sound I am looking for to fit into the band mix of a particular song at the particular point. Everything else is irrelevant. great point, it's not whether the digital ones sound exactly like the analogue originals, it's whether it's the sound you want. It's all subjective. Two amp modelling examples. Playing the guitar in an old band, I had a really old, 1970's Marshall valve combo which was completely uncontrollable, until i put a Sansamp in front of it doing a Mesa Boogie impression. Sounded brilliant, just like a Boogie... Then i got some money and tried an actual Mesa Boogie...the difference was very noticeable. And I bought the amp as i much preferred the real version, but until that point I'd been very happy with my Sansamp version, and nobody had ever made any negative comments about my guitar sound (only my guitar playing) For bass, I've had an SVT 2 Pro for a while now, but rehearsing at studios in London where the backline is provided, there's not much incentive to bring the Ampeg on the tube, so I got a Bass VT pedal. Does a great, if not 100% accurate SVT impression. So much so that I haven't brought the SVT to a rehearsal or a gig in over five years - it a back breaking hassle, the sound man is going to want to DI me anyway (although the SVT does allow that) so I just bring the Bass VT pedal. never had anybody make any comments about the sound not being all it should. If i was providing the backline I'd probably dust off the SVT, and i won't be selling it any time soon, but I don't care enough about the "authentic" sound to worry about it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted June 21, 2018 Author Share Posted June 21, 2018 14 minutes ago, adamg67 said: Ah, now, I should have said that I was looking at this stuff about 3 years ago, and looking at the gear that people had and that was in the rehearsal rooms. I'm sure the quality of the best of the mid range stuff will have gone up. The point I was originally trying to make was that the decent modelling gear I know about can easily hold it's own against analogue. As everything gets better that will be true of more and more digital gear. Ah ok. Well I have a lowly Zoom B3n & Zoom MS60B in terms of multi-fx and they should in no way be comparable to the quality of the MB Multi-amp. However from everything I've heard the new Line 6 Helix range, which came out last year, this is a bit of a revelation in terms of quality and if the Helix HX (which is more in my price bracket rather than the 'full fat' version) had aux in, headphone and DI out it would be on my board like a shot... If you go onto the Helix thread and you might be surprised at the amount of love this multi is getting from some pretty knowledgeable BC pedal experts. A lot can happen in terms of pedal quality improvements in 3 years; in fact, as far as product quality goes, I'd go as far as to say that improvements in pedal technology is happening at a faster pace than in any other part of the signal chain. Particularly when Leo Fender pretty much got his first P bass 'right', how much real scope was there to take things on from there when it came to basses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinterMute Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 29 minutes ago, adamg67 said: I think it was the effects in the Multiamp that did it for me, espcially drive, pitch and filter. Yep, very capable unit, I looked at it before I bought a second hand XT Pro, but I needed a bit more power and went with a sweaty great Crown amp into the Big Twin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted June 21, 2018 Author Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Monkey Steve said: Then i got some money and tried an actual Mesa Boogie...the difference was very noticeable. There is indeed something special about Mesa Boogie, particularly their 12Ax7 valve pre & MOSFET power amps which their more modern D-class amps (for me) haven't come close to reaching in terms of just fantastic tone. But hey, I digress (but a lot less than about Peppa Pig... 🐖😂). Yes sir, you can Boogie, all night long. And that is certainly improved by the band not having to fiddle about with analogue pedal settings mid set...you see what I did there? Seamlessly back on track! Edited June 21, 2018 by Al Krow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinterMute Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 12 minutes ago, Al Krow said: But hey, I digress (but a lot less than about Peppa Pig... 🐖😂). Yes sir, you can Boogie, all night long. And that is certainly improved by the band not having to fiddle about with analogue pedal settings mid set...there you see what I did there? Seamlessly back on track! Jesus, can't a man buy a plushy pig....? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Just now, WinterMute said: Jesus, can't a man buy a plushy pig....? Depends on your intentions when left alone in a darkened room with it... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.