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“Tonewood” comparison, Rosewood vs Ebony fretboard sound clips.


Manton Customs
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Rosewood vs Ebony  

14 members have voted

  1. 1. Which bass is the Rosewood and which the Ebony?

    • Rosewood, Ebony, Rosewood, Ebony
      9
    • Ebony, Rosewood, Ebony, Rosewood
      1
    • I can hear no difference
      4

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  • Poll closed on 07/03/18 at 10:37

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This subject comes up fairly often, but it’s not very often that people actually get to compare two (damn near) identical basses back to back. So, I thought I would put this sound clip up. Both basses are the same, except for the fretboard wood. They both have the same hardware, pickup, body/neck woods, setup and they both have the same strings. Both basses were recorded the same way and I did my best to play consistently (but there will always be a human element).

To ensure we are not ‘hearing with our eyes’ I’m not going to reveal which one is which until the threads been open a sufficient period. There’s a poll too, but that’s more of a bit of fun as there’s a 50/50 chance of being right even if you just guess blindly (deafly!?).

In the soundclip each bass is separated by the clicks counting in, whenever you hear those clicks the bass is switched. So the options are -

Rosewood, Ebony, Rosewood, Ebony

Ebony, Rosewood, Ebony, Rosewood

Or a third option- I can hear no difference

Have fun!

 

Edited by Manton Customs
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Yes there's a difference, but to my ears it is so slight that its pretty much irrelevant although, it is a bit more pronounced on the slap sounds. And in the context of a band mix (which is where it really counts) I doubt anyone would be able to tell the two apart on any of the playing styles.

And then there is the problem with the methodology of your test.

1. There are just two many variables in the construction of solid electric instruments. Every bit of wood is different. Even if the woods used in both instruments are the same species for each part, there will be differences between them, and that's before we even think about the differences in where and how they are joined. And what about the electronic components? Unless you are specifying very close tolerance items there will be at best a ±10% tolerance for every single component in the signal chain. How similar are the pickups in terms of resistance? Did you even measure them?

2. Then there's a sample size. I'm sorry but two instruments simply isn't enough. If you had 100 identical instruments (or as close as possible given point 1), 50 with Rosewood boards and 50 with ebony boards and you got constant difference between the two types and the overlap in between each type was negligible (i.e. the darkest of the brighter sounding wood was still brighter than the brightest of the darker sounding wood) then I might be able to start taking this tone wood stuff seriously when it comes to solid electric instruments.

3. And finally there is tester's bias. I'm sure you didn't mean to do it, but unless you were blindfolded and didn't know which bass was which, there will have been some variation in your playing style as you unconsciously tried to bring out the sonic characteristics you were expecting form each bass.

And all this is why I think that trying to isolate the sonic characteristics imparted to a solid electric instrument by a single component is a fools errand. There are two many other variables that can't be ignored. And then you need to address the sample size of the tested instruments and get a consistency of result, for any of this to have any proper meaning.

To me each instrument is the sum of all its various parts and you can break it down and sign a single characteristic to a single one of any of those parts. I treat each bass (or guitar) as a whole. And either as a whole it works or doesn't for me. And TBH from my PoV unless there is something very wrong with the instrument it will be possible to get a good usable sound out of it with a slight modification of my playing technique and EQ and effects settings that will result in a suitable bass sound for whatever song I am playing.

 

BTW I didn't vote, because there wasn't an option for I could tell a difference between the examples but it didn't matter which was which, and I'd pick the bass that looked the best to me.

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The difference, if I am not even imagining it, is to me too small to matter and may be nothing to do with the fretboard material anyway. Even if it is to do with the fretboard material, it tells us nothing about any other pieces of ebony or rosewood which might sound different again.

And I have no idea which is ebony and which rosewood.

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There is another bias. What format is used for recording and playback : mp3 or wave ? Or in other words, compressed or uncompressed file ?

The mp3 is compresing, so the bass will always sound stronger and hard to recognize, the high will be less affected, but again, only good reproduction system will help...

I'll listen to your sound files tomorrow through my hi-fi system and through headphones and I'll give you my answer(s).

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9 hours ago, Hellzero said:

There is another bias. What format is used for recording and playback : mp3 or wave ? Or in other words, compressed or uncompressed file ?

The mp3 is compresing, so the bass will always sound stronger and hard to recognize, the high will be less affected, but again, only good reproduction system will help...

I'll listen to your sound files tomorrow through my hi-fi system and through headphones and I'll give you my answer(s).

One would hope that the original recordings were made at 24bit 44.1kHz. However Soundcloud streaming (which is how we are listening to them) is at best 128BR MP3 which IMO is too low resolution to allow any meaningful analysis of the recordings.

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Ok, I've done the listening and there are obvious differences between the two woods. This is a game I've played for years with my fellow audiophiles, but stopped because I was really fed up to listen again and again to the exact same pieces of music.

So, here are my conclusions :

The first is more compressed, less defined and muddier, with some mellower bass, a light dip in the mids and some kind of absorbed high which is typical from less denser woods or a bad fret job. 

The second is way far more opened and way less compressed, with more presence in the high mid region, a well defined bass with more fundamental in it and a sparkling high (you can hear the frets rattling) which is typical from denser woods or real good fret job.

The fret job is also very important and that's one of the main reason almost all maple necks always sound compressed... 

I now will vote instead of giving an answer which is the real game, I guess.

But I have to say that there should have been a 1 second silence between each part to be fairer and let the ears reset.

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12 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Yes there's a difference, but to my ears it is so slight that its pretty much irrelevant although, it is a bit more pronounced on the slap sounds. And in the context of a band mix (which is where it really counts) I doubt anyone would be able to tell the two apart on any of the playing styles.

And then there is the problem with the methodology of your test.

1. There are just two many variables in the construction of solid electric instruments. Every bit of wood is different. Even if the woods used in both instruments are the same species for each part, there will be differences between them, and that's before we even think about the differences in where and how they are joined. And what about the electronic components? Unless you are specifying very close tolerance items there will be at best a ±10% tolerance for every single component in the signal chain. How similar are the pickups in terms of resistance? Did you even measure them?

2. Then there's a sample size. I'm sorry but two instruments simply isn't enough. If you had 100 identical instruments (or as close as possible given point 1), 50 with Rosewood boards and 50 with ebony boards and you got constant difference between the two types and the overlap in between each type was negligible (i.e. the darkest of the brighter sounding wood was still brighter than the brightest of the darker sounding wood) then I might be able to start taking this tone wood stuff seriously when it comes to solid electric instruments.

3. And finally there is tester's bias. I'm sure you didn't mean to do it, but unless you were blindfolded and didn't know which bass was which, there will have been some variation in your playing style as you unconsciously tried to bring out the sonic characteristics you were expecting form each bass.

And all this is why I think that trying to isolate the sonic characteristics imparted to a solid electric instrument by a single component is a fools errand. There are two many other variables that can't be ignored. And then you need to address the sample size of the tested instruments and get a consistency of result, for any of this to have any proper meaning.

To me each instrument is the sum of all its various parts and you can break it down and sign a single characteristic to a single one of any of those parts. I treat each bass (or guitar) as a whole. And either as a whole it works or doesn't for me. And TBH from my PoV unless there is something very wrong with the instrument it will be possible to get a good usable sound out of it with a slight modification of my playing technique and EQ and effects settings that will result in a suitable bass sound for whatever song I am playing.

 

BTW I didn't vote, because there wasn't an option for I could tell a difference between the examples but it didn't matter which was which, and I'd pick the bass that looked the best to me.

For further clarification-

1, I largely agree, I’m not trying to prove anything once and for all, challenge anyone or change anyone’s mind, just provide a possibly interesting soundclip for discussion. I can say though that all pieces of wood (minus the fretboards) were cut from the same boards for both basses though. Both bodies are 1 piece, so there are only two joints - the bolt on neck joint which was milled to the exact same tolerances and the fingerboard (which you’d have to be a complete hack to get any kind of void in). So they are really as close as you can practically get with two basses. And yes I did take a reading of the pickups and have the figures written down (will provide them later)

2,  Yes, but it’d be fairly impractical to record and analyse 50 basses, I was simply working with what I had on hand.

3, Yep, there will be a personal bias, I did mention the human element in the original post. As for expecting any certain results - I went into it as open minded as I could and I’m not going to disclose my thoughts on the “tonewood” subject at this time.

I believe this thread can still be interesting in a number of ways without proving or dispelling anything for certain. As said at the beginning the poll is a bit of fun.

They were recorded in WAV, but I can’t help what soundcloud might do to it afterwards.

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5 minutes ago, Manton Customs said:

For further clarification-

1, I largely agree, I’m not trying to prove anything once and for all, challenge anyone or change anyone’s mind, just provide a possibly interesting soundclip for discussion. I can say though that all pieces of wood (minus the fretboards) were cut from the same boards for both basses though. Both bodies are 1 piece, so there are only two joints - the bolt on neck joint which was milled to the exact same tolerances and the fingerboard (which you’d have to be a complete hack to get any kind of void in). So they are really as close as you can practically get with two basses. And yes I did take a reading of the pickups and have the figures written down (will provide them later)

2,  Yes, but it’d be fairly impractical to record and analyse 50 basses, I was simply working with what I had on hand.

3, Yep, there will be a personal bias, I did mention the human element in the original post. As for expecting any certain results - I went into it as open minded as I could and I’m not going to disclose my thoughts on the “tonewood” subject at this time.

I believe this thread can still be interesting in a number of ways without proving or dispelling anything for certain. As said at the beginning the poll is a bit of fun.

They were recorded in WAV, but I can’t help what soundcloud might do to it afterwards.

Thanks for the clarification. The fact that the necks are bolt-on opens up an interesting second test. Would it be possible for you to swap the necks and do the recordings again? That way we could see if the slight change in sound moves with the neck, remains with body or if you end up with 2 brand new tonal variations.

The problem still remains with the sample size (as it does with all similar tests). Until someone has the time and money to do this properly, at best all we are every going to be able to say is that one bass sounds different to another, and we are never going to be able to say EXACTLY what is causing those differences in sound. Which of course we all know already!

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My view is that if after however many years people still argue about it, then the difference -if it exists- cannot be of huge importance, and it probably comes down to personal preference. So I file these threads under 'purely entertainment', conveniently... since my scientific background would go crazy if I tried to take these comparisons seriously.

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So, my feeling pushed me to the decision of the majority. I'm curious if we were right :-)

I think, this question is more important when using fretless basses. There is a nice comparison available on YT with Adrian Maruszczyk demoing "identical" instruments with just different fingerboard woods:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPAHQXms6_A

 

One can still argue if blueburst vs redburst makes a difference, too ;-)

Cheers,

Tom

 

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3 hours ago, tom5string said:

So, my feeling pushed me to the decision of the majority. I'm curious if we were right :-)

I think, this question is more important when using fretless basses. There is a nice comparison available on YT with Adrian Maruszczyk demoing "identical" instruments with just different fingerboard woods:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPAHQXms6_A

 

One can still argue if blueburst vs redburst makes a difference, too ;-)

Cheers,

Tom

 

 

red is warmer

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OK, honest answer, I don't think I could tell. First listen I hadn't read the instructions, so didn't know where the breaks were. On second listening I thought 1 was slightly "plummier" than 2, therefore rosewood, but I think I was trying to convince myself I could hear a difference, whereas, when I didn't know what I was listening for I couldn't tell.

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2 hours ago, Manton Customs said:

Step forward the one guy who voted option two (Ebony, Rosewood, Ebony, Rosewood) you got it right :). Thanks all for voting and commenting.

As you have revealed the results would you care to "disclose my thoughts on the “tonewood” subject" now?

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6 hours ago, BigRedX said:

As you have revealed the results would you care to "disclose my thoughts on the “tonewood” subject" now?

I suppose!

I do believe the woods make a small difference, but it's not that relevant of a difference for most people in any real world situation. This difference can be heard to a certain extent in the clips, it's definitely there, but it is fairly subtle. It's more pronounced acoustically, but these are electric basses.

Both basses sound nice to my ears and if there were any characteristics there I didn't like I'd use the EQ on my amp (obviously not in the test though!). But I can't say I have ever had to do that before to make up for something which I believed was caused by wood choice. I don't believe there is one wood which is going to make an instrument sound either amazing, or unpleasant. I have used some seldom used woods (perhaps never) in guitar building and not one of them has sounded completely different. Just subtle differences again.

As some woods in the same species can vary massively (Ash can be featherweight or a boat anchor for example), I don't think there's any way of accurately predicting how the bass will sound as a whole based on the species of wood picked. Especially when you start using multi species laminate necks.

Another area where the tonewood thing gets a bit difficult is describing the tone...it's really not that easy to do and some people will hear different things. I've had people describe the tone in these clips in completely the opposite way that I hear and would describe it.

So I generally pick my woods on suitability, stability, weights and appearance. Those things will affect the ownership experience far more than any slight differences in tone. But I'm not saying it's not there, or that this is the only way to see it.

 

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Surely, tge most influential "tonewood" in a bass will be that used in the neck structure. This is because this is the section most likely to resonate. The fretboard is too thin to make a lot of difference. 

Body wood is too thick and short in length. As for burlwood tops and veneers; I never saw the point in that other than aesthetics.

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