Jazz - what's it all about ?

[edstraker123]

Saw Hadrien Feraud at bass day yesterday and undoubtedly the guy is a musical genius but boy was it dull ! It was obvious that loads of people there loved this kind of music but I really don't understand it's appeal - just sounds like a babble of random notes to me. What's it all about ?

[Bilbo]

" Έχω ένα όνειρο ότι τέσσερα μικρά παιδιά μου μια ημέρα ζωντανή σε ένα έθνος όπου δεν θα κριθούν από το χρώμα του δέρματός τους, αλλά από το περιεχόμενο character."

That's what jazz sounds like to you.....

You don't get it because you haven't learned to hear it yet. Its not that you can't hear it; children who have no preconceptions about music react just as positively to jazz as they do anything else. But, if all you ever listen to is simple, diatonic blues-forms, you will struggle with something as complex as what Feraud is doing (alternatively, of course, it could be that it was dull!!).

If you ever do get into it at any stage, it is amazing how two-dimensional all the stuff you used to like will sound. Its just a different way of listening and very rewarding.

Of course, like all genres, some of it IS dull!

PS the passage written in Greek above is;

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

[johnnylager]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='325923' date='Nov 10 2008, 02:58 PM']...children who have no preconceptions about music react just as positively to jazz as they do anything else...[/quote]
Until you beat it out of them

That Feraud is mental though. Sorry, that's probably not a very jazz term.

Edited November 10, 2008 by johnnylager

[steve]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='325923' date='Nov 10 2008, 01:58 PM']Its just a different way of listening.[/quote]

Can you elaborate that point pls?

[Wil]

Here we go again.

[Clarky]

[quote name='steve' post='325943' date='Nov 10 2008, 02:21 PM']Can you elaborate that point pls?[/quote]
If you have to ask the question, you wouldn't understand the answer







KIdding

[Wil]

Basically, what it boils down to is, if you don't appriciate jazz there is something wrong with you, you'll never be a great musician and you'll spend your life a mere shadow of your potential.

[The Funk]

"Jazz isn't dead. It just smells funny." Frank Zappa
"Because it disappeared up its own arse?" Me

I like Jazz

[Bilbo]

Different way of listening? How long have you got?

Loosely speaking, if, say, Dave Gilmour plays the guitar solo on 'Comfortably Numb', he can pretty much guarantee what will happen behind him; the drums are pretty much set, the ryhythm is locked in, the bass notes are going to be here, here and here and the chords are the same as last time. In many rock settings, the solos are pre-determined and rehearsed to be performed 'like the record' but, even if they are improvised, it is generally on one level (NB these are simplifications and there are exceptions).

When a jazz soloist is playing, they are taking part in a dialogue that is determined by their own contribution but is equally defined by those of their bandmates. If I play a phrase, the drummer may punctuate it, he may not. The piano player may echo my phrase or complete it with a phrase of his own. He may create a counterpoint; he may ignore it entirely and put in something that jars completely against it. Whatever happens, there are a complex series of choices being made as every second passes about who is playing which notes, chords scales and rhythms. A good jazz musician is listening to everyone of the musicians he is performaing with at all times, something that is actually mentally very difficult to do. A simile I have used before on this forum is it is like the difference between a speech and an conversation. One is easier to control and is pre-determined while the other can lead you almost anywhere the contributers want to take it. This is what makes jazz a high risk activity compared to most mainstream rehearsed music styles.

I could go on all day about this (and probably will) but, in terms of 'a different way of listeing', I guess I mean that you are listening for something unusal instead of something familiar.

Edited November 10, 2008 by bilbo230763

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Wil' post='325966' date='Nov 10 2008, 03:05 PM']Basically, what it boils down to is, if you don't appriciate jazz there is something wrong with you, you'll never be a great musician and you'll spend your life a mere shadow of your potential.[/quote]

That's what you call defensive.

Personally, my perspective is that, if you don't appreciate jazz, you are missing out on something wonderful, fresh and life affirming.

[The Funk]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='325977' date='Nov 10 2008, 03:15 PM']When a jazz soloist is playing, they are taking part in a dialogue that is determined by their own contribution but is equally defined by those of their bandmates. If I play a phrase, the drummer may punctuate it, he may not. The piano player may echo my phrase or complete it with a phrase of his own. He may create a counterpoint; he may ignore it entirely and put in something that jars completely against it. Whatever happens, there are a complex series of choices being made as every second passes about who is playing which notes, chords scales and rhythms. A good jazz musician is listening to everyone of the musicians he is performaing with at all times, something that is actually ,entally very difficult to do. A simile I have used before on this forum is it is like the difference between a speech and an conversation. One is easier to control and is pre-determined while the other can lead you almost anywhere the contributers want to take it. This is what makes jazz a high risk activity compared to most mainstream rehearsed music styles.[/quote]

I guess this would explain why a couple of people have described my band as "funky jazz". We tend to all go off at once but that doesn't make us jazz in my book. A lot of improvisation-heavy bands in different styles do that, the jam bands. Sure, it was a jazz thing but it was introduced and reintroduced into rhythm n' blues and rock n' roll at many different points along the way so that you can now have guys who do that but would struggle to play a swing walking line on [i]Autumn Leaves[/i] or [i]I've Got Rhythm[/i].

[Bilbo]

Absolutely - the whole jam band think is probably accurately called jazz rock or jazz funk - using the language of rock or funk to inform your improvisations rather than the language of jazz; the process is essentialy the same and the potential for creative playing is equally high (as is the chance of falling on your a***). Early jazz rock bnads were really creative; the life-blood got sucked out of it all by some of the more commercial Kenny G, Crusaders, David Sanborn kind of material. But Medeski, Martin & Wood et al can be marvelous.

[MacDaddy]

it's about using flattened 5ths and making sure every chord is at least a 7th

[Balcro]

[quote name='edstraker123' post='325911' date='Nov 10 2008, 01:43 PM']Saw Hadrien Feraud at bass day yesterday and undoubtedly the guy is a musical genius but boy was it dull ! It was obvious that loads of people there loved this kind of music but I really don't understand it's appeal - just sounds like a babble of random notes to me. What's it all about ?[/quote]


It depends upon whose jazz you're listening to. Some of its listenable/accessible and other stuff is purely academic.
Twirly sounds & twisted themes, borrowed/imported thems, disappearing themes, returning themes and completely
off the theme. I guess it's musicians entertaining themselves rather than the audience. I would also hazard a guess
that half the audience don't get it either, but they go along with someone else who does because they want to be cool.

I've bought CD's by the following: -

1. Ray Brown - EUB, 3 CD's
2. Stanly Clarke - guitar and EUB, 2 CD's.
3. McCoy Tyner Trio (Charnett Moffat - bass).
4. Tokyo '96. Jarrett/Peacock (bass)/DeJohnette.
5. Brian Lemon Trio. (English).
6. The Organ Trio, (English).
7. Alec Dankworth & Co. EUB, to name but a few and I've download many others. As far as I'm concerned 2,3,and 4
are a complete waste of my time.

2. SC hops, pops & slaps all over the place and plays so high it's almost alto. Virtuosity of the Bass neck.
3. Bass is relatively comventional but McCoy T's arrangements to me, are off the wall.
4. It's all off the wall, famous album or not. Played it twice but won't be bothering again.

EDIT: insert Bilbo's large 3rd para from 3.15pm post. Crackin!

Getting it is not compulsory. You're not a lesser musician or human being because you don't. I started piano
lessons/reading music when I was 6 and you can see my opinion above. Listen to Noel Redding or Billy Cox playing
the bass on Hey Joe. Then listen to L.Zep "Whole lotta love". Same notes? Does any of it matter? Technical wizardry
doesn't equate to great song writing.

Balcro.
PS. anybody want 2 Stanley Clarke albums - going cheap.

[Bilbo]

I have never heard anything by Stanley Clarke that I like. I have heard him ON things I like (early Return to Forever) but his own solo stuff leaves me cold - always has. Electric or double bass - he frequently disappoints.

[LukeFRC]

before I played anything I loved music so much, i would listen to the radio for hours and just be transfixed. As I learn more i can understand more, i listen to a lot of stuff now and im working out how its played, the notes and so on.
I like jazz cos i dont get it, its all a glorious mess of amazing sounds to me still. I have no idea how to start playing jazz bass (any pointers?) but it sounds amazing. Its so cool, i dont get it but i like it.
Like I get 'so what' by miles right up to 1:32 where it just takes off!

[Cantdosleepy]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='325977' date='Nov 10 2008, 03:15 PM']When a jazz soloist is playing, they are taking part in a dialogue that is determined by their own contribution but is equally defined by those of their bandmates. If I play a phrase, the drummer may punctuate it, he may not. The piano player may echo my phrase or complete it with a phrase of his own. He may create a counterpoint; he may ignore it entirely and put in something that jars completely against it. Whatever happens, there are a complex series of choices being made as every second passes about who is playing which notes, chords scales and rhythms. A good jazz musician is listening to everyone of the musicians he is performaing with at all times, something that is actually mentally very difficult to do. A simile I have used before on this forum is it is like the difference between a speech and an conversation. One is easier to control and is pre-determined while the other can lead you almost anywhere the contributers want to take it. This is what makes jazz a high risk activity compared to most mainstream rehearsed music styles.

I could go on all day about this (and probably will) but, in terms of 'a different way of listeing', I guess I mean that you are listening for something unusual instead of something familiar.[/quote]

Yeah, I find jazz intimidating for all the above reasons.

Glad there are those who like it, though.

[BigBeefChief]

Are you allowed to "get" Jazz but just not like it?

[Wil]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='326094' date='Nov 10 2008, 05:18 PM']Are you allowed to "get" Jazz but just not like it?[/quote]

Impossible. You clearly don't get it, or you wouldn't ask such a question!

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Wil' post='326097' date='Nov 10 2008, 05:20 PM']Impossible. You clearly don't get it, or you wouldn't ask such a question![/quote]


The reason I asked is that I don't want to spend 3 years learning the language of Jazz to find out that I was right all along and that it was utter sh1te.

[Wil]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='326098' date='Nov 10 2008, 05:25 PM']The reason I asked is that I don't want to spend 3 years learning the language of Jazz to find out that I was right all along and that it was utter sh1te.[/quote]

I know what you mean. It'd be like spending 3 years in prison, then getting a kick in the balls instead of parole.

[edstraker123]

I'm sure it took Kenny G many years to master his instrument and look what happened there !

[lowdown]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='325977' date='Nov 10 2008, 03:15 PM']A good jazz musician is listening to everyone of the musicians he is performaing with at all times, something that is actually mentally very difficult to do.[/quote]

Actually that should apply to ALL Musicians...

Garry

Edited November 10, 2008 by lowdown

[acidbass]

[quote name='lowdown' post='326152' date='Nov 10 2008, 06:42 PM']Actually that should apply to ALL Musicians...

Garry[/quote]

Agreed. I've had lessons on how to do this in a rock context too, it's the mark of a great musician no matter what the genre.

[Exile252]

I'm not a big Jazz fan. Just because I tend to think their trying too hard to be impressive, as if it isn't what they best at, but doing it because they think they should. I may get flamed for that comment.
Even though I do agree that it takes some skill to play Jazz with a band, and do what you do whilst everyone else is doing what they do.