Al Krow Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 Having started to get to grips with the Zoom B3n, I guess I'm discovering that one of the key benefits of a multi-fx in a 30 song set list is that, whilst most set numbers are going to be pretty plain vanilla "decent cab sim" numbers, the B3n gives me the option of selecting quite fun effects which will, I'm sure, add a smile to an audiences' face, but which I might use on just one song e.g. "funk wah" on a MJ bass line. I readily acknowledge that a multi-fx won't be a substitute for the potentially [i]significantly[/i] greater quality that a dedicated single effects can provide, particularly for those effects that you find you're using all the time (for example in my case a warm valve sound / overdrive or perhaps a quality compressor) or perhaps to a lesser extent those that need to be tweaked on set quickly (e.g. the parameters on a delay) when there is going to be nothing to match the tweak-ability of a pedal dial - but even then nothing to stop you pre-progamming something in the right ball park for a given song and hopefully minor variations in a drummer's tempo on set won't result in the audience noticing a slightly too quick or two slow delay echo? My key point that I am meandering to is that no way would I be tempted to get a "funk wah" pedal for just one song (or even have thought about using absent the Zoom). So I'm really enjoying the possibilities for greater creativity and fun that the Zoom B3n / any other decent multi-fx) is / would be providing. So I guess my firm conclusion is that a multi-fx can definitely merit a place on your pedal boards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) A reasonably good multi-effects unit will have tap-tempo for any of the time based effects like delay/phase/flange/tremolo etc. which IME is the parameter you are most likely to need to change and is a far faster and more accurate way of changing it than any pedal dial. A really good multi-effects pedal will allow you to assign specific parameters to control knobs or pedals to allow you to tweak them mid-song. A really good multi-effects pedal would also have at least one switchable and assignable external loop to allow you to add an indispensable individual effects unit to any place in your signal chain and allow you to switch it in and out. Edited June 5, 2017 by BigRedX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) A reasonably good multi-effects unit will have tap-tempo for any of the time based effects like delay/phase/flange/tremolo etc. which IME is the parameter you are most likely to need to change and is a far faster and more accurate way of changing it than any pedal dial. A really good multi-effects pedal will allow you to assign specific parameters to control knobs or pedals to allow you to tweak them mid-song. A really good multi-effects pedal would also have at least one switchable and assignable external loop to allow you to add an indispensable individual effects unit to any place in your signal chain and allow you to switch it in and out. Sounds good. But which multi fx deliver these features and how much are they? Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Your Zoom B3n will do tap-tempo according to specification on the web site. You will need at external footswitch to enable it. You also appear to have tweak-able knobs for 4 parameters of 3 effects at any one time. The only thing missing is the effects loop(s). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) Your Zoom B3n will do tap-tempo according to specification on the web site. You will need at external footswitch to enable it. You also appear to have tweak-able knobs for 4 parameters of 3 effects at any one time. The only thing missing is the effects loop(s). Ok that sounds good in terms of tap tempo - I'll need to have a look at that further and this is also likely to then be directly applicable to my Boss RC-30 Looper which has found it's way onto my pedal board and doubles up as very convenient place to store riffs and other "ideas" (the RC-30 has 99 separate memories, with over dub capability and featuring twin pedals in case anyone's interested). But do you think that getting into the detail of effects settings mid-gig with everything else going on around and the band saying "get a move on and why the heck do you need to be using effects as a bass player anyway?!" that adjusting parameters is really just as quick and easy as simply turning a knob on a dedicated pedal? I think this will involve opening up the patch, adjusting the parameters, keeping one eye on the parameter variable whilst listening to the changes, then saving the modified patch and exiting back to main settings. I'm struggling to see how that will be as quick as simply turning the relevant pedal knob, even with a bit or practice, but I suspect you've become a dab hand at this?! I think from what you're saying above, though, that you're putting the Zoom B3n into the "really good" multi-fx catetgory? Which given it's price point makes it amzingly good value! Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 There are some parameters that can benefit from a tweak mid-preformance. The obvious being cut-off frequency on a filter. Others you'll discover as you use the effects, although for many either a single on/off footswitch or a pedal will suffice. Regarding using the Zoom in conjunction with you looper, it would be a lot better if they could be connected together via MIDI, then you could get locked synchronisation between the loop speed and any time-based effects on the zoom. You'd also be able to control one device from the other which could make using the two in conjunction a lot more straight forward. I still the presence of proper MIDI sockets and implementation on multi-effects to put them in the good category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannybuoy Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) My key point that I am meandering to is that no way would I be tempted to get a "funk wah" pedal for just one song... I have several 'funk wah' pedals used for NO songs. Just because they're so much fun to mess with! 😁 Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) I have several 'funk wah' pedals used for NO songs. Just because they're so much fun to mess with! Lol!! But they are fun I agree! I think you should definitely be promoted (perhaps together with the Dood?) to dannybuoy MEP...no not member of the European Parliament but BC's Master of Effect Pedals Have you been involved in designing and building your own? Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsun Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) I have several 'funk wah' pedals used for NO songs. Just because they're so much fun to mess with! I have a couple I do use on songs.....Insomnia being my favourite Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted October 3, 2017 Author Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) We were getting very much off topic on a "wireless use" thread...so allow me to transfer the discussion back over to here, 'cos it is a really interesting point (well to me anyway!) [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1506958529' post='3382312'] I'd replace all those pedals with a multi-effects unit that can be placed on top of your amp (or rack mounted with it), and then run a single controller cable of the appropriate type (probably Cat5 or MIDI) around the edge of the stage to your foot controller unit. [/quote] [quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1506960171' post='3382328'] How much are we talking about for a multi-fx that can match the quality of dirt from a Two Notes or a Pike Vulcan or the clean blend octave down of a COG T16/47/65 or the compression ability of a Cali 76 or even an MXR M87? Can any of them even do it? [/quote] [quote name='dood' timestamp='1507020460' post='3382698'] Well a very strong contender that I feel could do that and a whole lot more would be the Helix LT by Line 6. Give me a couple of weeks or so and I'll be able to confirm that for sure. [/quote] A snip at £945! Which, to be fair, is pretty much the same price as the individual dedicated pedals on my board + my Zoom B3n. But have Line 6 really now matched analogue and is it in a box that makes switching in and out of / mixing and matching key effects a doddle in a live context?! If so that's potentially a game changer... Edited October 3, 2017 by Al Krow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) We were getting very much off topic on a "wireless use" thread...so allow me to transfer the discussion back over to here, 'cos it is a really interesting point (well to me anyway!) A snip at £945! Which, to be fair, is pretty much the same price as the individual dedicated pedals on my board + my Zoom B3n. But have Line 6 really now matched analogue and is it in a box that makes switching in and out of / mixing and matching key effects a doddle in a live context?! If so that's potentially a game changer... £750 depending on where you shop - I bought mine on a 24 month interest free credit when it was just 700 new, so the purchase has pretty much gone unnoticed. Gotta love The Knock. Well, Two Notes use IR's and so can Helix (and my favourite modelling app BIAS or BIAS FX by Positive Grid) so the actual quality of simulations attainable are very good on the amplifier front. Very, very good. The tracking of the pitch shifting effects is also very good too and with some minor tweaking you can, as I have found so far, get some brilliant results. Any short comings are more than made up for by the routing you mention. You can run multiple signal paths, you can put effects in any order and daisy chain multiple instances of the same effect. Panning left and right or using the pedal to modulate between effects is great too. It's possible to assign one button to turn say three effects off and one on at the same time. It's possible to set up some effects (like an amp) as always on without a button, then use that switch for something else. There's a guy on Youtube that has demonstrated how to configure Helix so that the extra inputs can actually be used as an IEM mix as well, saving on having to have a separate headphone amplifier and stereo feed. All in one box. Another video I watched, a 'worship' guy used his Helix connected to his Mac. The Helix controlled MainStage to cue up specific backing tracks and allow starting and stopping of them via the pedal board rather than having to reach over to the laptop. - All at the same time as switching the sounds for his guitar too. I could go on, but the effects quality is brilliant and so are the almost endless opportunities for signal routing. With my IEMs I needn't take an amp with me at all. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 I appreciate that post does come across as gushing a bit, but if you'd seen the amount of rack gear I used to carry around to do the same thing... lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Good can you post a link to the YouTube video where he is using the Helix to control backing tracks? Is he actually using the pedals to select songs (as well as selecting the guitar patches) as well as start and stop them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 I use multi effects for modulation (Zoom B3 or Lexicon MPXG2). Things that are on a lot like gain, eq. bass synth and compression are standalone. It's been a good solution so far because I don't end up with a pedal board stuffed with pedals that only get used 10-20% of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CameronJ Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Dood, you may have just done a terrible thing and ignited a small ember of Helix GAS here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) Good can you post a link to the YouTube video where he is using the Helix to control backing tracks? Is he actually using the pedals to select songs (as well as selecting the guitar patches) as well as start and stop them? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d10tO2xMNE So in this case he is using buttons to select an audio sequence and this could indeed be a backing track, a pad, samples of random intro music. Being as the audio is in MainStage, well, you can pretty much trigger it to do whatever you want. MainStage is an incredibly powerful application that I have only just skimmed the surface of. For example, a fiend of mine who really is a wizard on keys dumped his multiple deck super system for a decent controller and a MacBook running MainStage which in turn also runs some essential plug ins. I use MainStage at home as an incredibly powerful teaching front end. One icon to click and I have songs ready with amazing guitar amps primed and ready to go (I use Positive Grid BIAS and BIAS FX Professional for amp sounds). Yes, he is able to start samples and stop them with the pedals and can even control the effects he is adding to his vocal microphone on top of using the Helix for his guitar tones. Each 'patch' you can save as a song name, thus the settings for each song are retained and there's so much scope for adjustment without leaving the patch. And that's what I have learned in a reasonably small amount of time and very little hands on time with the device itself. Fretmeister knows way more than I; he has certainly planted the seeds for my further study! Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) Here's the Helix used as an IEM mix controller: Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) I use Positive Grid BIAS and BIAS FX Professional for amp sounds How are you using Bias Dood? I'm running Bias FX on iPad and it's made all my other effects and modelers redundant for home use. But I still want a Helix... How do you think the quality of the modeling compares between Bias and the Helix? Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) How are you using Bias Dood? I'm running Bias FX on iPad and it's made all my other effects and modelers redundant for home use. But I still want a Helix... How do you think the quality of the modeling compares between Bias and the Helix? I mainly use BIAS in my studio. Ive used it for recording bass and guitar on professional releases. I do have it on my mobile devices and that's usually for teaching or just jamming. The live stuff I am doing, at the moment at least doesn't warrant a need for it running as a plug in, but if I did I'd probably run it in MainStage off my Mac in the absence of Helix. That said, I have bought the Helix Native plug in and yes I do have Helix LT here too. The only reason why I haven't been using them (yet) is simply time. I've been so, so busy, the poor ole Helix just hasn't had a look in. You'd think as a professional musician I'd have lots of time to play eh! In terms of comparison, at this early stage it's hard to say. I think the stock sounds out of BIAS are better, simply because I haven't had time to tweak Helix. Although, the amount of people that reach straight for downloadable IR plugins for Helix verses BIAS would possibly be tell tale. The only IR's that I have imported in to BIAS are ones that I have created myself for example, to replicate my favourite guitar player's sounds. (Brian May's 3 AC30's for example is working out to be fun!) Helix modelling is very, very good though, there's no doubt about that and I will make it work because I needn't take a second device out with me when it comes to guitar duties. The hardware will take it though. It is a very powerful device, that's for sure. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted October 4, 2017 Author Share Posted October 4, 2017 @Dood How does the Helix stack up against the following dedicated two pedals: - Cali 76 CB for compression? - TC sub 'n' up (with your favourite toneprint) for octave tracking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) @Dood How does the Helix stack up against the following dedicated two pedals: - Cali 76 CB for compression? - TC sub 'n' up (with your favourite toneprint) for octave tracking? Great questions! Ok so as above,I’m struggling to find time to really get in to my usual level of testing. I do for example own a latency tester ha ha!! Anyway, the Cali is an amazing compressor yes, but the triple band compression for bass guitar is hands down better. Thankfully there is such an option on Helix and it is very good. The 1176 model on the Helix is rather nice too and you’d not tell the difference when playing live. Initial tests suggest that although the pitch shifting tracks accurately and fast I think it might not track as low as SnU. But let me test that properly - and also take in to account that when I mean track low, I want to go all the way down probably lower than most people need. In that case you could say that these octavers are both exceptionally good. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Down to F# if I remember correctly Dood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted October 4, 2017 Author Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) I think a really good digital octaver (such as the Sub'n'Up) can track down to [i]below[/i] the open E string (whereas analogue octavers, with their typically better latency and more natural tone, will generally struggle at the A / G / F# point on the bottom E string). To track down well with minimal latency down to the open E is, of course, ideal for a 4 string player knowing that his or her octaver can follow them all the way down without worrying it's going to be breaking up mid riff. Edited October 4, 2017 by Al Krow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) I think a really good digital octaver (such as the Sub'n'Up) can track down to below the open E string (whereas analogue octavers, with their typically better latency and more natural tone, will generally struggle at the A / G / F# point on the bottom E string). To track down well with minimal latency down to the open E is, of course, ideal for a 4 string player knowing that his or her octaver can follow them all the way down without worrying it's going to be breaking up mid riff. If I remember Doods main bass correctly he has a F# below the low B Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) If I remember Doods main bass correctly he has a F# below the low B I do have a low F# below B! Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.