What's the etiquette in this situation?

[bassbiscuits]

Thanks all for your views - much appreciated as ever!

Yeah taking it on the chin seemed the right option on the night, and realistically still is. Just a stand after all, and could have been worse etc.

I guess the attitude of the person responsible is what annoyed me most - at least if she'd seemed apologetic it would have been my turn to say "don't worry it's ok" which is probably what I'd have done anyway.

We've got public liability as part of my instrument insurance, so were covered for such shenaigans.

Live and learn etc.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1447105828' post='2905002']
You couldnt leave something that top heavy unsecured on a building site or in a factory, so why in a pub? You need to be able to prove you took reasonable steps. Drunk customers is no excuse, we are talking about pubs here, it goes with the territory.
[/quote]

This. ^^^
In fitter times I would often go out with a buddy, helping out with his PA/lighting business. We took great pains to make sure that nothing untoward could happen in even pretty extreme probabilities, including crash barriers and limiting public access to delicate zones, even when those delicate zones were, themselves, made very secure. Lashing down, wire guys, double fixture slings, protected or buried cable runs... The list is long. We never had an incident of any kind, partly due to the care taken in avoidance. Not easy in crowded pub situations, but being lucky because it's only a bent stand isn't an option. Next time it could be far, far worse, but it's too late then, isn't it..? Insurance will only cover if all due care and attention has been carried out. Tops on a tripod accessible by the public would definitely not count as 'due care and attention'. Just sayin'.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Dad3353

[Lo-E]

[quote name='bassbiscuits' timestamp='1447108001' post='2905029']
I guess the attitude of the person responsible is what annoyed me most - at least if she'd seemed apologetic it would have been my turn to say "don't worry it's ok" which is probably what I'd have done anyway.
[/quote]Her condition was undoubtedly a contributing factor to her behavior. Perhaps, had she been sober, she might have been more apologetic.

It's a sad reality that, as entertainers, we often owe repeat bookings to the same sloppy drunks who trip over our gear from time to time. While she was wrecking your PA, some other, equally soused person may have been slurring to the person who booked you "These guys are amazing!" Happy drunks can get us a lot of work.

I think your handling of the situation was the right approach. It's all just part of the game.

Carrying specific insurance on your gear (in addition to your basic liability) could be a helpful tactic. I also suggest sand bags - the type used by film crews - to lay across the legs of your speaker tripods. Not only does the ballast make it much harder to tip the speakers, but the sand is less likely to injure a toe if another tipsy reveller gets too close to your PA.

[TrevorR]

[quote name='Lo-E' timestamp='1447115250' post='2905076']
Her condition was undoubtedly a contributing factor to her behavior. Perhaps, had she been sober, she might have been more apologetic.

It's a sad reality that, as entertainers, we often owe repeat bookings to the same sloppy drunks who trip over our gear from time to time. While she was wrecking your PA, some other, equally soused person may have been slurring to the person who booked you "These guys are amazing!" Happy drunks can get us a lot of work.

I think your handling of the situation was the right approach. It's all just part of the game.


[/quote]

This... We once did a wedding gig in a little village in Oxfordshire and ended up getting 4 other paying gigs on the basis of the mother of the bride and some guests gushing to friends about both the band and our lovely friendly attitude. That kind of good vibe can be undercut so easily with a few unthinking words.

[Jakester]

[quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1447103912' post='2904958']
You cant protect everything, but I'm never comfortable with heavy stuff like speakers on tripod stands in pubs where the stage is often not big enough. so the stand goes where people can get to it. Its a nasty accident, and a big claim, just waiting to happen.

If you cant tie it to a pillar or something, much better put on a table or a crate. Doesnt look good but safer.
[/quote]

I once did a gig where we had some large full range 15"s and for reasons that escape me now, the only way they could be set up was on tables from the venue. Half way through the first set one of them had vibrated it's way off the table and narrowly missed a young boy dancing in front of the band!! Speaker stands all the way for me...

[Naetharu]

I guess for me the important distinction to make would be whether she was:

(1) a bit drunk and made a honest mistake falling over

or

(2) was acting like a total prat, and regardless of drink, should have known better

From what you say it sounds as if this was a clear of an honest accident. She probably felt pretty silly and no doubt didn't want to make a scene. Not to mention that if she was drunk enough to fall over she was likely not really in a position to think clearly and act in a manner that she would if sober. Annoying to have to pay out to replace stuff sure but it sounds as if it is all part of the territory that comes with entertaining people that are drinking/partying.

[ubit]

We played a local pub that is quite rowdy . At one point these two guys flew towards me and knocked over my spare bass and knocked some stands onto our drummers kit, which chipped the finish. I went mad and was immediately given an apology. I then felt like a knob because I went off the head so much. I found out later that it was some arse hole of a girl that had pushed the guys, so it wasn't even really their fault, so I felt even worse for going off at these boys. Sometimes you are better just containing your anger at drunken people as they could easily escalate the situation into something nasty!

[Lysdexia]

That's really a fight all things considered.

It's long been a policy of mine that a band doesn't really count unless at least one member is a genuine nutcase.

[bonzodog]

To me this is the part of pub gigs i dislike when there is no stage. We did a gig on halloween with no stage where a drunk bloke kept standing in between me and the guitarist and singing through our mics. Then he started putting his arms round us while singing while several times knocking mic stands over as he walked past. Annoyingly as he was a regular all the punters and landlady found it highly ammusing. Thankfully there were no breakages but it was annoying to be going on pretty much all night

[Muzz]

[quote name='bonzodog' timestamp='1447175525' post='2905562']
To me this is the part of pub gigs i dislike when there is no stage. We did a gig on halloween with no stage where a drunk bloke kept standing in between me and the guitarist and singing through our mics. Then he started putting his arms round us while singing while several times knocking mic stands over as he walked past. Annoyingly as he was a regular all the punters and landlady found it highly ammusing. Thankfully there were no breakages but it was annoying to be going on pretty much all night
[/quote]

Personally, I wouldn't have put up with this, regular or no regular. Anyone onstage (or in the stage area) who hasn't been invited gets politely but firmly ejected straight away. If I/we have to stop playing to do it, then that happens. If you need to get the punters onside then you can laugh it off with "If you want to join the band you'll have to join the queue and audition when you're sober" or "Cheers mate - don't ring us, we'll ring you" or somesuch. Drunks have very little perception as to when something's no longer funny, so we nip it in the bud i.e. the first five seconds, otherwise, yeah, they just keep doing it...

Edited November 10, 2015 by Muzz

[TimR]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1447112786' post='2905059']


This. ^^^
In fitter times I would often go out with a buddy, helping out with his PA/lighting business. We took great pains to make sure that nothing untoward could happen in even pretty extreme probabilities, including crash barriers and limiting public access to delicate zones, even when those delicate zones were, themselves, made very secure. Lashing down, wire guys, double fixture slings, protected or buried cable runs... The list is long. We never had an incident of any kind, partly due to the care taken in avoidance. Not easy in crowded pub situations, but being lucky because it's only a bent stand isn't an option. Next time it could be far, far worse, but it's too late then, isn't it..? Insurance will only cover if all due care and attention has been carried out. Tops on a tripod accessible by the public would definitely not count as 'due care and attention'. Just sayin'.
[/quote]

It's a case of what is practical. Tops on tripod stands is a standard way of setting up. What additional steps you take for a temporary three hour gig has got to be proportionate. You're not going to spend an hour lashing down speakers that are going to be in place for three hours max.

Positioning them in front of the band where people wouldn't be expected to be is good enough.

If people are going to get drunk and fall over then there's insurance to argue that for you.

[BILL POSTERS]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1447179480' post='2905616']
It's a case of what is practical. Tops on tripod stands is a standard way of setting up. What additional steps you take for a temporary three hour gig has got to be proportionate. You're not going to spend an hour lashing down speakers that are going to be in place for three hours max.

Positioning them in front of the band where people wouldn't be expected to be is good enough.

If people are going to get drunk and fall over then there's insurance to argue that for you.
[/quote]

A 1X15 PA cab landing on someone has the potential to cause life changing injuries. Apart from the moral responsibility, you have a duty of care. Insurance companies are all crooks, if they can get away without paying because you were negligent, they will.

"The 7ft high, wobbly, two hundredweight top heavy box balanced on a tripod, with one of its legs on the dancefloor was only going to be there for 3 hours while drunks dance and stagger around it" would do you no good in a courtroom when read out by the lawyers for the HSE, or by the no win no fee lawyer for someone in a wheelchair who is going to spend the rest of their life with the consequences.

Edited November 10, 2015 by BILL POSTERS

[Jakester]

[quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1447182486' post='2905653']


A 1X15 PA cab landing on someone has the potential to cause life changing injuries. Apart from the moral responsibility, you have a duty of care. Insurance companies are all crooks, if they can get away without paying because you were negligent, they will.

"The 7ft high, wobbly, two hundredweight top heavy box balanced on a tripod, with one of its legs on the dancefloor was only going to be there for 3 hours while drunks dance and stagger around it" would do you no good in a courtroom when read out by the lawyers for the HSE, or by the no win no fee lawyer for someone in a wheelchair who is going to spend the rest of their life with the consequences.
[/quote]

Sorry, but this is cobblers. The very purpose of public liability insurance is to cover you if you have been negligent. That is the very definition of public liability insurance.

Ins co's might not have the best press, but their reasons for refusing to pay are usually relating to the person insured failing to advise them of material facts, or fraud. It's very difficult these days for an insurer to decline a claim.

Speaking as a lawyer who deals with this stuff day-in, day-out, using a product in the way the manufacturer intended within the recommended design parameters is unlikely to land you in court. Balancing said 15" speakers on a table without any form of restraint, on the other hand...

[JoeEvans]

Some people put a bit of black and yellow hazard tape around the bottoms of the legs of their speaker stands if they are using them for gigs where the band is down on a level with a drinking public. That way people are genuinely more likely to see them, but if worst comes to worst you can also say that you risk-assessed the set-up, identified that there was a possibility of people tripping over the legs or bumping into the stands, and took action to mitigate the risk. Likewise, depending on lighting set-up, you could also mount a little red LED bike light on each speaker stand upright (or on the protruding front leg) to draw attention to the hazard. Might look at bit silly in some circumstances but if there was a fairly busy lighting set-up it might look ok.

[BILL POSTERS]

[quote name='Jakester' timestamp='1447183210' post='2905661']
Sorry, but this is cobblers. The very purpose of public liability insurance is to cover you if you have been negligent. That is the very definition of public liability insurance.

Ins co's might not have the best press, but their reasons for refusing to pay are usually relating to the person insured failing to advise them of material facts, or fraud. It's very difficult these days for an insurer to decline a claim.

Speaking as a lawyer who deals with this stuff day-in, day-out, using a product in the way the manufacturer intended within the recommended design parameters is unlikely to land you in court. Balancing said 15" speakers on a table without any form of restraint, on the other hand...
[/quote]

OK.

Cobblers is such a lawyerly word.

Edited November 10, 2015 by BILL POSTERS

[TimR]

[quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1447193042' post='2905762']


OK.

Cobblers is such a lawyerly word.
[/quote]

50kg is 0.98cwt
Speakers should be at ear height which is about 5ft
Wobbly stands shouldn't be used.

"Reasonably Practicable" has a specific legal meaning within H&S. But as we have less than 5 employees I don't think we're bound by the HSE and H&S at work. The landlord or hotel owner may well be.

I agree with 'cobblers'.

Edited November 10, 2015 by TimR

[Kiwi]

[quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1447105828' post='2905002']
You couldnt leave something that top heavy unsecured on a building site or in a factory, so why in a pub? You need to be able to prove you took reasonable steps. Drunk customers is no excuse, we are talking about pubs here, it goes with the territory.
[/quote]
Ellas fencing is the standard for construction sites.

Only way to be sure...