TimR Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Maybe Blue is missing what it was really all about. Not music but teenage rebellion. And so being told that the Beatles were the greatest and everyone should bow down and worship them is a bit like my Grandad telling me to listen to James Last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1440515451' post='2851440'] Initially localised around the bases. The Beatles got off the plane and within hours had played to pretty much the whole population. [/quote] Initially, but then it was shipments of American music post-war to those GIs where McCartney said he first got to hear the likes of Arthur Alexander. It was the GIs who spread Jazz, Blues and RnB, bringing Black music to white audiences which opened the door to the Beatles with their new take on this sound. OK, it may not have been so instant but it may well have been equally, or even more significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1440516844' post='2851462'] Maybe Blue is missing what it was really all about. Not music but teenage rebellion. And so being told that the Beatles were the greatest and everyone should bow down and worship them is a bit like my Grandad telling me to listen to James Last. [/quote] To subscribe to the notion of 'teenage rebellion' is to fall prey to the secret weapon in the arsenal of marketing. It is a chimera, a fanciful illusion designed to part the gullible and unwary youth from his cash. As a diversionary deployment in a debate about the very essence of perspectual experience - namely, participation in the events being discussed - such a contention falls woefully short of the high standards we set ourselves. One might stretch the point were the proponent of such a view to be a dewy-faced teenager; but not for a craggy old forum greybeard with frankly excessive mileage on the clock. The fact remains: If one wants historical perspective one goes to the horse's mouth, not to some juvenile, egregiously bearded and tattooed hipster possibly named Jake or Bevis, a young man who might profess (as young men do) to know everything but who is - as is so often the case - a clueless f**ktard. Around this simple fact I would hope we all could unite As for the idea that '[i]we are being asked to bow down[/i]'? Well, that's just revelatory in it's faux-injured straw-mannishness. The truth is that some people get all upset and feel 'threatened' or 'demeaned' if someone else expresses an opinion shorn of the usual wheedling 'IMO' or 'YMMV'. It is all of a one with the idea that school sports are 'unfair' and that everyone must be a winner and that we should always respect other peoples' opinions even if they're talking complete bollocks. Corbynista socialism, in other words. Well, I'm not having any of it. Edited August 25, 2015 by skankdelvar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 [quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1440517594' post='2851474'] Initially, but then it was shipments of American music post-war to those GIs where McCartney said he first got to hear the likes of Arthur Alexander. It was the GIs who spread Jazz, Blues and RnB, bringing Black music to white audiences which opened the door to the Beatles with their new take on this sound. OK, it may not have been so instant but it may well have been equally, or even more significant. [/quote] Of course, but those TV appearances put the whole of a nation in a room together, across generations. That's a huge event, and part of why it had such a profound effect on so many people. Nothing else like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1440519116' post='2851494'] Of course, but those TV appearances put the whole of a nation in a room together, across generations. That's a huge event, and part of why it had such a profound effect on so many people. Nothing else like it. [/quote] Sure, if you are only measuring instant impact then no-one can argue with a TV audience of 40% of the population. But for a lasting legacy and global change, it may well have been the Americans who instigated that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1440517594' post='2851474'] Initially, but then it was shipments of American music post-war to those GIs where McCartney said he first got to hear the likes of Arthur Alexander. It was the GIs who spread Jazz, Blues and RnB, bringing Black music to white audiences which opened the door to the Beatles with their new take on this sound. OK, it may not have been so instant but it may well have been equally, or even more significant. [/quote] Quite so. The cultural importation of the 1940's should not be underestimated. Even so, the Jazz, Blues, Swing artists etc of the period had their own antecedents. In the same way that Elvis was influenced by Arthur Crudup and Hank Williams, so Charlie Christian may have been influenced - perhaps - by Tampa Red and he in turn by WC Handy whose influences stretch back to African-American field hollers brought from what is now the Gambia. Similarly, white country music was influenced by Hungarian polkas and Scots / Irish balladry, both forms which have discernible roots in Indian music. All music can trace its roots back to the principle cradles of civilisation, namely Africa, India, China and what we call 'The Middle East'. In a folkloric sense millions have contributed to the development of the form. In this sense, the question of 'influence' is moot. But if we are to consider the sub-genre of Western pop music we must account the Beatles to have had the fastest and most comprehensive effect on the largest number of people, if only because they surfed the power of the media as had no other before. That they were uniquely talented is the factor that separates them from subsequent 'constructs'. Edited August 25, 2015 by skankdelvar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Pah, beatles. They aren't a patch on One Direction, they have sold loads more records! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Sorry if this has already been posted, some of you may be interested in this 5 part documentary if you haven't seen it before - [MEDIA]http://youtu.be/N8FWxO2qBsg[/MEDIA] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1440503261' post='2851291'] I think the perceived arrogance is that you think anyone not born in the 60s hasn't had an equally important and influential exposure to music.[/quote] Not at all, there are plenty of important ( not equally though )influential exposure to music. What I am saying is, for Pop & Rock the big change and initial link started with The Beatles. Yes there were some greats before Beatles, but not as influential. One of my huge influences was Sly & The Family Stone. But guess what, one of Sly's influences was The Beatles. Blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1440512490' post='2851391'] Y'see, I don't have a problem here. My understanding of what Blue's saying is: '[i]The contention is that the Beatles had (or did not have) a considerable influence on contemporary music and culture. [/i][/quote] Thanks Skankdelvar, That's really all I am saying. The best answer unless your a true historian if your a younger person, instead of being critical is: [i]"Hey, I have no opinion on The Beatles it was before my time."[/i] I have a guitarist buddy in his 40s that is always giving me the Beatles [i]"I don't get it " [/i]routine. I'm like if it weren't for the chain reaction the Beatles started you might not even be playing an *electric guitar and might not have that long hair. Blue * You should see the stats for electric guitar and bass sales the week after the February 9th,1964 Beatles appearance on US TV. The Ed Sullivan Show. Edited August 25, 2015 by blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 [quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1440522481' post='2851565'] Sorry if this has already been posted, some of you may be interested in this 5 part documentary if you haven't seen it before - [MEDIA]http://youtu.be/N8FWxO2qBsg[/MEDIA] [/quote] Excellent! Blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1440516844' post='2851462'] Maybe Blue is missing what it was really all about. Not music but teenage rebellion. And so being told that the Beatles were the greatest and everyone should bow down and worship them is a bit like my Grandad telling me to listen to James Last. [/quote] Not at all. However, for the younger ones that are critical, the might want to study a little of the history before taking an ignorant position. Worship, no. An understanding and appreciation of the contribution, yes. Blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) [quote name='blue' timestamp='1440542325' post='2851859'] ... I have a guitarist buddy in his 40s that is always giving me the Beatles [i]"I don't get it " [/i]routine. I'm like if it weren't for the chain reaction the Beatles started you might not even be playing an *electric guitar and might not have that long hair. Blue .... [/quote] My point being; Why does he have to get it? Why do you have to make him get it? Why is it a curse? Most people understand the massive sea change they bought about. If the guy is still playing in his 40s and doesn't follow the Beatles then something else has influenced him directly other than the Beatles. Why does it matter so much to you? In my earlier posts I'm just trying to put some points of view from the other persons viewpoint. I'm not a massive Beatles fan. In fact I can't stand most of their material. Whilst I agree they changed the world, it was over 50 years ago and the world moves on. Edited August 25, 2015 by TimR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1440544656' post='2851878'] My point being; Why does he have to get it? Why do you have to make him get it? Why is it a curse? [i]He doesn't have to get it, but I subscribe to the notion of understanding and getting Pop/Rock history. Like many he doesn't get it and I can't make him get it. The curse is the difficulty in explaining this huge part of music history to young musicians and music lovers.[/i] Most people understand the massive sea change they bought about. [i]A lot of people don't.[/i] If the guy is still playing in his 40s and doesn't follow the Beatles then something else has influenced him directly other than the Beatles. Why does it matter so much to you? [i]Because he's critical of The Beatles.[/i] In my earlier posts I'm just trying to put some points of view from the other persons viewpoint. I'm not a massive Beatles fan. In fact I can't stand most of their material. Whilst I agree they changed the world, it was over 50 years ago and the world moves on. [/quote] [i]I have no problem with the fact you don't like the material, you get the big picture which again was more than their material.[/i] Blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 [quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1440520948' post='2851534'] Pah, beatles. They aren't a patch on One Direction, they have sold loads more records! [/quote] Who is One Direction, never heard of them. I've heard of the Beatles. See my point? LOL Blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted August 26, 2015 Author Share Posted August 26, 2015 You Guys, C'mon. At a high level this is about English history, not American history. Regardless of your opinion or age, 4 of your mates changed the world. Let me explain how far reaching and how far beyond music this goes. This is just a small personal example. Prior to the Beatles in my world England did not exists. Ever since the Beatles I developed a strong interest in English people, English culture and history. Blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1440512490' post='2851391'] Many seem to be asking indignant and slightly whiny questions on the lines of: 'Are you saying me and people like me can't I have my opinion?' To these members I would say this: 'You all know full well you can have an opinion - but for some reason you won't let Blue hold an opinion which carries somewhat more weight than most. Some of you are mischievously misrepresenting his position in an attempt to foment ill-feeling for purposes of petty self-aggrandisement. 'You're being rather silly and spiteful. Best you go and sit on the naughty step to contemplate your foolishness'. [/quote] Actually, what he's said is that young people shouldn't express their opinions: "Just like when I say young folk should keep their negative uninformed opinion to themselves, because I still opinion if you weren't there you don't understand stand what happened or what the Beatles did. It's not a matter of right or wrong." Whether or not you were there, you can still have an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1440514581' post='2851427'] I only have video archives, anecdotes, books and the music to base it on, but I really can't think of a culture shock comparable to the Beatles getting off that plane in 1963. I don't think anything comes close. [/quote] That's the nub of it. It was a culture shock, not a musical one. There seems to be an awful lot of conflating going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 (edited) I think Blue is over estimating how important any kind of music is to people who weren't actually there at the time. Despite having been born in 1960, The Beatles completely passed me by. By the time I was interested in any kind of music it was the 70s and they were long (in pop/rock music terms) gone. Not just yesterday's news but the last decade's news. Paul McCartney was in Wings who made a couple of albums that I enjoyed and Ringo had produced one catchy pop single. The others weren't even on my radar because I was far more interested in Bolan, Bowie, Slade and The Sweet. Listening to "old" music was what your parents did and to me and my friends The Beatles were old music. When we looked at photos of The Beatles they were dressed either in suits (how "square") or like hippies. They certainly didn't have that modern cool of our glam rock heroes. That doesn't mean that they weren't important. They just weren't that important to me even though it was only 2 years since they had split up. Since then I've come to appreciate some of what they did, but there are plenty of other bands from that era that I enjoy far more. They may well have stood upon the shoulders of The Beatles to be able to do what they did, but it doesn't matter to me. Sometimes the trail-blazers are less interesting than the ones who come after simply because they've had to make compromises in order to blaze that trail. Their followers don't have those constraints and are all the more interesting/entertaining for it. And that's how it is for every generation. If you didn't experience it first hand, you can never quite "get" how important the various pop cultural "revolutions" were. Plus everyone wants to discover interesting music/things/ideas for themselves and not have it forced upon us by older people who claim to know better. Edited August 26, 2015 by BigRedX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 [quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1440579456' post='2852032'] Actually, what he's said is that young people shouldn't express their opinions: "Just like when I say young folk should keep their negative uninformed opinion to themselves, because I still opinion if you weren't there you don't understand stand what happened or what the Beatles did. It's not a matter of right or wrong." [/quote] But I posted my observation about 10 hours [i]before[/i] Mr Blue's post (that you quote). Not being a gypsy fortune teller I could not have anticipated the contents. There being no connection between the two posts, your 'actually' doesn't really count. Not that I mind; but accuracy is everything [quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1440579456' post='2852032']Whether or not you were there, you can still have an opinion. [/quote] Indeed so. Everyone is entitled to hold an opinion however rum or blithering. But in the matter of the Beatles influence on his times Mr Blue's opinion will carry more weight with me than the worthless burblings of the ill-informed or the casual 'provocateur' out to buff his self-regard to a high gloss. In truth, it is a kindness to suppress the animadversions of those who know not of which they speak. A hapless proponent who goes too far in his erroneous adumbrations risks being followed down the street by a crowd of small boys, each pointing a finger and crying 'Look at that silly duffer! Thinks the Beatles don't matter that much. What a perfect chump!' It is an honourable tradition that some people say [i]very silly things[/i] and more knowledgeable people laugh at them for doing so. It is a necessary component in the acquisition of wisdom. To disrupt the process is to go against Mother Nature herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted August 26, 2015 Author Share Posted August 26, 2015 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1440584112' post='2852088'] I think Blue is over estimating how important any kind of music is to people who weren't actually there at the time. Despite having been born in 1960, The Beatles completely passed me by. By the time I was interested in any kind of music it was the 70s and they were long (in pop/rock music terms) gone. Not just yesterday's news but the last decade's news. Paul McCartney was in Wings who made a couple of albums that I enjoyed and Ringo had produced one catchy pop single. The others weren't even on my radar because I was far more interested in Bolan, Bowie, Slade and The Sweet.[/quote] And Bolan, Bowie, Slade and The Sweet were all influenced by the Beatles. IMHO, you had an interest in The Beatles, but you didn't know it. This is the point I have been trying to make to many that weren't there. Blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted August 26, 2015 Author Share Posted August 26, 2015 (edited) Such great powerful memories and critical thought. All us 9 & 10 year olds that saw The Beatles on February 9th 1964 with 70 million people. Many like me on that crucial Sunday night. Were at that weird age without a lot going on except baseball, marbles and blue jeans, we immediately thought: [i]"Ok, this I get, this is whats happening, this is what I want to be like, this is where I want to go. Mom do you think you could by me an electric bass guitar?"[/i] [i]Blue[/i] Edited August 26, 2015 by blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 (edited) She Loves You is essentially an Irish Sea Shanty set to Little Richard rock line. Paul talks about the Beatles' influences: http://youtu.be/2xjo1eEgeew . Edited August 27, 2015 by TimR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Those were the days [media]http://youtu.be/L5vkJ7RruBk[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1440625921' post='2852575'] And Bolan, Bowie, Slade and The Sweet were all influenced by the Beatles. [/quote] Why do you think that? Does your hero worship blind you totally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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