Conan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1420803343' post='2653554'] yes... maybe, but I've travelled down to Yeovil to try ...and as it happened, buy. We also travelled up to Liverpool ... [/quote] Which is fine if you have the funds and (more importantly) the time to devote to testing and buying basses. Those of us who don't often have to resort to buying blind (or trusting the seller, at least!). It's not a level playing field really. Not that I'm complaining! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy67 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 I've bought a lot from guitarguitar and soundcontrol. Red Dog Music in Edinburgh are a good bunch and I try to support them as much as possible. However, the range of basses for sale in shops all over Edinburgh is fairly limited meaning I use here or other places such as Facebook pages: North East Bass or Music Equipment Glasgow/Edinburgh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Bought 3 US Fenders and a Ric S/H online without playing any of them. No important issues with any that a good set up didn't cure. Most basses I see new in shops are often in need of a decent set up anyway so that would be done in any case. I can see how many 'physical' retail shops are under pressure. Especially the ones with poor customer service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='KevB' timestamp='1420803782' post='2653565'] Bought 3 US Fenders and a Ric S/H online without playing any of them. No important issues with any that a good set up didn't cure. Most basses I see new in shops are often in need of a decent set up anyway so that would be done in any case. I can see how many 'physical' retail shops are under pressure. Especially the ones with poor customer service. [/quote] Or poor customers i,e .. the ones that test out the gear and go and buy elsewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I mean the ones with staff that look like they would rather be doing [i]anything[/i] other than serve customers and are just killing time before they get their gear together to play metal to 12 punters down the local in the evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameronj279 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1420802546' post='2653538'] You can always haggle.... but thats a two way thing. As I said initially.... [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]majority of people purchasing don't give a toss about anything other than price of what they want.[/font][/color] [/quote] A lot of people can't really afford to pay a premium on things though. There are lots of factors. I do however get the OPs point that the mark up is quite drastic at times. I never really find too much of an issue as I tend to buy second hand and when I buy new it's generally not much of a price hike for buying in store (a tenner at most). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1420804616' post='2653585'] Or poor customers i,e .. the ones that test out the gear and go and buy elsewhere [/quote] Well, yeah, maybe.... I personally would feel bad doing that - but there are plenty of people who don't. Mostly younger musicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I gave up after just two years of running a small music shop (2004-2006) as even back then I was faced with the, at the time, fledgling internet sales boom and was having to work on 15% if I wanted to compete. Also, backing up what shops are finding with Thomann pricing, I could buy a Gibson Les Paul for £1400 trade when at the time they were available across the board for £1299. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) [quote name='andy67' timestamp='1420799311' post='2653467']...Mike Dirnt precision. I love the look of these basses and pretty much want one. New in shop, they cost £1067 however, on-line I can pick one up for £850. I started looking at the second hand market and found some of the asking prices nothing short of ridiculous! Fender P new £1100 s/h £800, its no wonder they don't sell!! [/quote] Fender's range and pricing policy is certainly, er... eclectic let's say! But they are still the brand to whom many aspire, so they still sell in huge quantities. Their US range is overpriced I would say but it still has its devotees. The problem with second-hand prices is that they are mostly set by individuals. Most of those individuals don't want to lose much money on a sale. Sometimes the new price of an item has fallen drastically since they bought their item, but they still want to get close to what they paid for it. A good example of this was the Genz Benz gear last year. I bought one of the 212 neo cabs at the (massively discounted) new price of £379. That's nearly half the normal price. I didn't get on with it, and when I decided to sell it on I was faced with a dilemma. Once the half price deal was over, what should I ask for it?? Edited January 9, 2015 by Conan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Problem is that we're looking at a selling price and making markup assumptions based on that. The only way to know exactly what markup has been applied is to know the buying in price and the sale price. Fred's Music Shop will buy three basses from a supplier. Thomann will buy 50 of each model from the same supplier. Who's going to get the biggest discount out of those two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='icastle' timestamp='1420807167' post='2653632'] Fred's Music Shop will buy three basses from a supplier. Thomann will buy 50 of each model from the same supplier. Who's going to get the biggest discount out of those two? [/quote] Yes. Another example of why we have to be very careful what we wish for. Those of us who will haggle and shop around to find the best (i.e. lowest) price are responsible for the fact that outlets (you wouldn't call them "shops") like Thomann have pretty much cornered the market now. We didn't patronise our local music shops. Then again, a lot of local music shops have contributed to their own downfall due to often appalling customer service and refusal to see where the business was heading... Still got to feel sorry for them really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1420806376' post='2653620'] I gave up after just two years of running a small music shop (2004-2006) as even back then I was faced with the, at the time, fledgling internet sales boom and was having to work on 15% if I wanted to compete. Also, backing up what shops are finding with Thomann pricing, I could buy a Gibson Les Paul for £1400 trade when at the time they were available across the board for £1299. [/quote] I used to own a console games shop. I gave up when I could buy games cheaper from Tesco than from the distributors. Also, companies like Amazon are able to sell without charging VAT. It's wangle they can pull by shipping goods to off-seas places with no VAT. That's why Amazon invoices are addressed as from Luxembourg. My guess is this is in many other industries too. I'm curious how folk here know so much about the businesses they buy from. It's ok saying a Fender costs 350$ to make, but what is the manufactures profit margins, and what are the shipping costs, import duty, UK distributor costs, shop overheads and profit, plus of course... UK VAT at 20% on top of ALL those accumulated costs. I'm sure your local shop would bite your arm off if you could show them HOW they can decrease their buy price and get their prices lower while maintaining profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1420806376' post='2653620'] I gave up after just two years of running a small music shop (2004-2006) as even back then I was faced with the, at the time, fledgling internet sales boom and was having to work on 15% if I wanted to compete. [/quote] Yep. 15% may sound reasonable on the surface, but it only takes one theft, accident or bad purchase decision and you've got no safety net. Unfortunately, as with most things, people will only realise the value of something once it's all gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 This month I took Mrs G to buy a keyboard. We went to a real shop that kept good stocks, she tried out loads of keyboards and it took most of the day. I was PLEASED to spend the price the shop asked because without their stocks and facilities how would we know which keyboard to buy? On-line sellers wont help. I'm sure the online buyers here will be the first to moan when all the shops have gone and they're no longer there for them to screw over by adding wear and tear to the shop stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6v6 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1420807536' post='2653645'] We didn't patronise our local music shops. Then again, a lot of local music shops have contributed to their own downfall due to often appalling customer service and refusal to see where the business was heading... Still got to feel sorry for them really. [/quote] Kind of depends on your definition of local - if you're prepared to travel a bit then there's outlets of UK based companies who also do online sales, where you can try stuff and pay something close to a competitive price. It's right to say we, collectively, have killed small enthusiast owned local music shops - they've not only been killed by large online retailers though, it's also small online traders e.g ebay shops and the like providing stuff at much lower margin than maintaining a physical shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weststarx Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='andy67' timestamp='1420802769' post='2653543'] Sad to say but not far from the truth unfortunately. I remember being around music shops during the 70s and 80s, was brilliant almost like a social event, people chatting, playing, planning next gig, buying, getting shop credit, swapping. I really miss all that cos nowadays you go past a shop and you see very few people in. [/quote] I never got to experience that because I'm still wet behind the ears, but you do often get stared at by staff of guitars shops sometimes like they are almost in shock someone came into the store... I guess pretty much anything purchasable will eventually all be online and not on the high street, but with the state of the xfactor music industry these days I can see the end of guitar shops coming a lot quicker and its my generation of 90s kids thats destroying it... I always wondered what kids of the 90s would be known for and I think it will be the death of Rock n Roll and bloody selfies....what a sad sad era to grow up in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='Weststarx' timestamp='1420808022' post='2653657'] I never got to experience that because I'm still wet behind the ears, but you do often get stared at by staff of guitars shops sometimes like they are almost in shock someone came into the store... I guess pretty much anything purchasable will eventually all be online and not on the high street, but with the state of the xfactor music industry these days I can see the end of guitar shops coming a lot quicker and its my generation of 90s kids thats destroying it... I always wondered what kids of the 90s would be known for and I think it will be the death of Rock n Roll and bloody selfies....what a sad sad era to grow up in [/quote] "If you want to change the world start by looking at the man in the mirror." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='Cameronj279' timestamp='1420806085' post='2653616'] A lot of people can't really afford to pay a premium on things though. There are lots of factors. I do however get the OPs point that the mark up is quite drastic at times. [/quote] How do YOU know? You don't know their buy costs and overheads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ead Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='andy67' timestamp='1420801764' post='2653521'] The demand thing though, surely selling 10 at £300 is better than seling 2 or 3 at £500? [/quote] Not if it costs you £250 to buy one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy67 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='ead' timestamp='1420808698' post='2653677'] Not if it costs you £250 to buy one. [/quote] From information given, at the £300 mark, it would cost £180. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='Cameronj279' timestamp='1420806085' post='2653616'] A lot of people can't really afford to pay a premium on things though. There are lots of factors. I do however get the OPs point that the mark up is quite drastic at times. [/quote] Bit of a moot point this as we are talking about music gear that people don't actually need, but want. Therefore, if they can afford the £850 bass, say it has taken them a year to save for it they only need to carry on saving for another 3 months and then they can pay the premium, which then means that good music shops can continue to provide great service like the one that Grangur enjoyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1420807536' post='2653645'] Then again, a lot of local music shops have contributed to their own downfall due to often appalling customer service and refusal to see where the business was heading... Still got to feel sorry for them really. [/quote] The independents have borne the brunt of technology in many areas and survival means reinvention. I saw a lovely bit of reinvention the other day. An old fashioned grocers shop, complete with all the shelves behind the counter (think Arkwright's) [b]but[/b] they'd joined one of those bulk buying groups (I think it was Nisa) that most independent convenience stores use in order to get the 'buying power'. They'd gone out of their way to select as many 'traditional' brands as they could, bought a bar and shelving from pubs that were closing, ripped out all their metal shelving and redecorated the place. It was mid afternoon but I had to wait to get served, and there were people waiting behind me. Reminded me of the shops when I was little(r) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) Here on BC we are a relatively well informed bunch but I don't think we are really a reflection of the average gigging musician.. Your regular BC contributor is well aware of most brands and types of instrument, amp etc. but we are bass enthusiasts (enough so to contribute to a forum on the finer points of bass related stuff) where as most people I've played in bands with haven't got the first clue about gear... The singer / guitarist in one of my current projects has been on the scene for years and played hundreds of gigs with various line ups and he was totally unaware that fender manufacture in various countries (MIM, MIJ etc) and had no idea that squire was fenders budget brand... he is fairly typical of people I've met in bands over the years. I think music shops will survive as the majority of people just don't know any better. Edited January 9, 2015 by CamdenRob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy67 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='icastle' timestamp='1420809076' post='2653692'] The independents have borne the brunt of technology in many areas and survival means reinvention. I saw a lovely bit of reinvention the other day. An old fashioned grocers shop, complete with all the shelves behind the counter (think Arkwright's) [b]but[/b] they'd joined one of those bulk buying groups (I think it was Nisa) that most independent convenience stores use in order to get the 'buying power'. They'd gone out of their way to select as many 'traditional' brands as they could, bought a bar and shelving from pubs that were closing, ripped out all their metal shelving and redecorated the place. It was mid afternoon but I had to wait to get served, and there were people waiting behind me. Reminded me of the shops when I was little® [/quote] I'd love that! Kinda similar example is, with most bars changing to the trendy wine bars making them pretty characterless, its lovely walking into an old fashioned type pub with a band playing in a tight corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) [quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1420809681' post='2653703'] Here on BC we are a relatively well informed bunch but I don't think we are really a reflection of the average gigging musician.. Your regular BC contributor is well aware of most brands and types of instrument, amp etc. but we are bass enthusiasts (enough so to contribute to a forum on the finer points of bass related stuff) where as most people I've played in bands with haven't got the first clue about gear... The singer / guitarist in one of my current projects has been on the scene for years and played hundreds of gigs with various line ups and he was totally unaware that fender manufacture in various countries (MIM, MIJ etc) and had no idea that squire was fenders budget brand... he is fairly typical of people I've met in bands over the years. [b]I think music shops will survive as the majority of people just don't know any better.[/b] [/quote] That's what I thought when I opened a games shop. I don't own a games shop any more. Edit: Maybe your guitarist is simply un-affected by GAS. So as he's not a buyer he wont affect the market in any way. Edited January 9, 2015 by Grangur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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