andy67 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Want to start a discussion re instrument prices/pricing on both new and second hand. When visiting a local music shop recently, It came as quite a shock the price of a new fender, more specifically the road worn Mike Dirnt precision. I love the look of these basses and pretty much want one. New in shop, they cost £1067 however, on-line I can pick one up for £850. Still expensive but should shops start realising that, given the mark-up is already around the 45%, perhaps they should be more competitive with on-line retailers? I get the overheads and staff cost argument but again given the mark-up, does this really stand up to scrutiny? Given the state of the economy and marketplace, musicians and most buyers are fairly tight for money meaning equipment is more or less sitting in shops or warehouses right now so, why is gear so over priced? Surely a bit of realism in pricing and maybe lowering would see lots of gear shifted really quickly? I started looking at the second hand market and found some of the asking prices nothing short of ridiculous! Fender P new £1100 s/h £800, its no wonder they don't sell!! Again, equipment appears not to be moving as quickly due to most finding extra cash a little tight at the moment so, again, should sellers price their used gear more approriately? As with the above example, Fender seems the most ridiculous in the market. Look around the sites, pre-loved, gumtree, ebay or the more specialised sites and its staggering what some want! Why buy secondhand when for another £100 you could have new! Crazy times we live in ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 It seems you don't get the costs and overhead argument. Online sellers have none of the fixed expenses so there is no way for a shop to beat the prices offered by online sellers. All a shop can do to stay in business is to reinvent the company as an online seller and use the shop as a loss leading front for it's online business. In the 60's a Fender would cost you an average of 3 to 4 months wages, so good gear has never been cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorks5stringer Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Most shops will do a deal, I got a local retailer to match a Thomann online price recently. As for secondhand, now we have the net everyone knows the price of everything but there are people out there who will pay more than they should, just because! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy67 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) Believe me I do get the argument, I want to see people employed and would like to buy locally but not at £2-300 more however, you appear to have missed the point about the mark-up? It would take me around 8 months to save for a Fender and I'm pretty well paid. Once I find the article I'll post however, the article was stating that a Fender P (roadworn) cost $350 to make and assemble and then its marked up by 300% bit odd no? I disagree re equipment being cheaper particularly pro gear, cheap gear is cheap, China has definitely shaken that market up. The manufacturing process in Asia/Indonesia has improved dramatically making the cost more effective including the import Edited January 9, 2015 by andy67 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif].........Most shops will do a deal.........[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]In the end they do one deal too many and that's another empty window.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I'm not in music retail - but I have idiots trying to get discount on ten pound[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]items on a frequent basis - it's just a pain in the rear......[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [/font][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='andy67' timestamp='1420799311' post='2653467'] Still expensive but should shops start realising that, given the mark-up is already around the 45%, perhaps they should be more competitive with on-line retailers? [/quote] If you think that shops are making 45% then you are sorely mistaken. Most will make 25% if they are lucky. The majority of people purchasing don't give a toss about anything other than price of what they want. The main issue for the industry is that you cannot control pricing easily therefore prices will vary wildly. Some brands suffer worse than others. Also the larger on-liners that will work on a much smaller margin to shift vast quantities of product they've bought from the manufacturers on a deal. It's no really the dealers fault.... the manufacturers are also responsible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy67 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 The Fender thing, prices just went skyward on USA and custom shop in such a short time! I paid £700 for my first US P bass in 2007 now £1100 however, the Mex Standard P is as good quality as my first US P. Somethings just don't add up! Re the 25% perhaps realism is coming to the front. The 45% came through a discussion with a rep some years ago, won't name him as I don't drop and a few on here will know him. Great chat with him though. Re wanting discount on £10 - cannae help some people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='andy67' timestamp='1420800497' post='2653489'] Once I find the article I'll post however, the article was stating that a Fender P (roadworn) cost $350 to make and assemble and then its marked up by 300% bit odd no? [/quote] Why is it odd? The price is driven by demand..... Fender is a Brand that (certain) people aspire too. People will pay the money. How much do you think an iPhone or iPad cost to manufacture and compare to the retail price. If there is a demand, price will reflect that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='andy67' timestamp='1420801192' post='2653506'] The Fender thing, prices just went skyward on USA and custom shop in such a short time! I paid £700 for my first US P bass in 2007 now £1100 however, the Mex Standard P is as good quality as my first US P. Somethings just don't add up! Re the 25% perhaps realism is coming to the front. The 45% came through a discussion with a rep some years ago, won't name him as I don't drop and a few on here will know him. Great chat with him though. Re wanting discount on £10 - cannae help some people! [/quote] 45% is a usual discount from list price with a lot of manufacturers in the trade. This does not reflect the margin the dealer makes.... as I said... most are lucky to make 25% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1420800223' post='2653484'] Most shops will do a deal, I got a local retailer to match a Thomann online price recently. As for secondhand, now we have the net everyone knows the price of everything but there are people out there who will pay more than they should, just because! [/quote] My local shop says that Thomann can sell at a price that they can't buy at..which has led to a few shops buying direct from Thomann. This is why some companies make their contract supply deals so watertight and are very hard if a shop betrays that sort of commitment, not to say, contract. Shops will try to match online, upto a point, but this is unfair, imo, as online doesn't have shop costs. I support shops as that is where you go to try the stuff.. so there is your premium. When there are no shops, then where do you try the stuff out. Buying a bass online...?? you have to be joking, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy67 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 I know how ridiculous the ipad/iphone/macbook cost to make and the margin added as there are many many programmes on TV and on-line which criticise Apple for this and highlighting the plight of their cheap workforce. However, bass gear is of interest and I want to keep the focus there. The demand thing though, surely selling 10 at £300 is better than seling 2 or 3 at £500? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1420801586' post='2653517'] My local shop says that Thomann can sell at a price that they can't buy at..which has led to a few shops buying direct from Thomann. [/quote] This..... I know of several UK dealers and installers buying product from Thomann because the price is so low. As I mentioned on the Thomann thread previously, Thomann will always strive to be cheapest on-line as that is their business model. Especially out of their own territory (Germany). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy67 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1420801586' post='2653517'] My local shop says that Thomann can sell at a price that they can't buy at..which has led to a few shops buying direct from Thomann. This is why some companies make their contract supply deals so watertight and are very hard if a shop betrays that sort of commitment, not to say, contract. Shops will try to match online, upto a point, but this is unfair, imo, as online doesn't have shop costs. I support shops as that is where you go to try the stuff.. so there is your premium. When there are no shops, then where do you try the stuff out. Buying a bass online...?? you have to be joking, IMO. [/quote] Bought my last bass from a shop, however, I'm sure you have bought S/H without trying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='andy67' timestamp='1420801764' post='2653521'] I know how ridiculous the ipad/iphone/macbook cost to make and the margin added as there are many many programmes on TV and on-line which criticise Apple for this and highlighting the plight of their cheap workforce. However, bass gear is of interest and I want to keep the focus there. The demand thing though, surely selling 10 at £300 is better than seling 2 or 3 at £500? [/quote] But most manufacturers will have products that cover various retail points..... so they will obtain this business anyway. Just because they have a product you want at £500 but you really only want to pay £300 for isn't their problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy67 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1420801964' post='2653527'] But most manufacturers will have products that cover various retail points..... so they will obtain this business anyway. Just because they have a product you want at £500 but you really only want to pay £300 for isn't their problem [/quote] That's an example and not what I'm saying re the Standard P. I want a roadworn Mike Dirnt P but unprepared to pay £1067 for it, Isn't cash king? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='andy67' timestamp='1420800497' post='2653489'] It would take me around 8 months to save for a Fender and I'm pretty well paid. [/quote] I believe the argument was talking about raw salary, not saving up money. I trust "pretty well paid" means you are making more than [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]£1067 a month. So a new Fender will cost you less than a month's salary, instead of the 3-4 months' worth alluded to back in the day.[/font][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='andy67' timestamp='1420802182' post='2653529'] That's an example and not what I'm saying re the Standard P. I want a roadworn Mike Dirnt P but unprepared to pay £1067 for it, Isn't cash king? [/quote] You can always haggle.... but thats a two way thing. As I said initially.... [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]majority of people purchasing don't give a toss about anything other than price of what they want.[/font][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weststarx Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) I must admit I will always go try a guitar/bass in a shop if I can and then go and order it online somewhere cheaper. Some people probably see that as 'bad' but if I can get something £££s cheaper I will, its my money at the end of the day. The other issues guitar shops have is the lack of varied stock, if you want a Fender or Gibson thats great but if you want anything else you're having to order online anyway. Stock of bass guitars is even worse... I wont be suprised to see guitar shops start closing over the years and an eventual end to rock n roll in general. Edited January 9, 2015 by Weststarx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy67 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1420802419' post='2653535'] I believe the argument was talking about raw salary, not saving up money. I trust "pretty well paid" means you are making more than [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]£1067 a month. So a new Fender will cost you less than a month's salary, instead of the 3-4 months' worth alluded to back in the day.[/font][/color] [/quote] Yes quite correct, didn't look at it form that perspective. However, who could afford to buy from raw salary? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy67 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='Weststarx' timestamp='1420802563' post='2653539'] I must admit I will always go try a guitar/bass in a shop if I can and then go and order it online somewhere cheaper. Some people probably see that as 'bad' but if I can get something £££s cheaper I will, its my money at the end of the day. The other issues guitar shops have is the lack of varied stock, if you want a Fender or Gibson thats great but if you want anything else you're having to order online anyway. Stock of bass guitars is even worse... [b]I wont be suprised to see guitar shops start closing over the years.[/b] [/quote] Sad to say but not far from the truth unfortunately. I remember being around music shops during the 70s and 80s, was brilliant almost like a social event, people chatting, playing, planning next gig, buying, getting shop credit, swapping. I really miss all that cos nowadays you go past a shop and you see very few people in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='andy67' timestamp='1420801851' post='2653523'] Bought my last bass from a shop, however, I'm sure you have bought S/H without trying? [/quote] One bass.... but it was a custom bass for a great price so I knew the risk was very very low.. It wasn't a risk at all as it turned out as it is now my main bass. But I wouldn't buy lower cost basses without seeing, hearing and playing them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1420799982' post='2653481'] In the 60's a Fender would cost you an average of 3 to 4 months wages, so good gear has never been cheaper. [/quote] Agreed. I paid £1300 for my Status series II in 1986. If I bought one today it would cost around the same amount. Compare that to the price or things like houses, cars, food, holidays... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='Weststarx' timestamp='1420802563' post='2653539'] [b]I must admit I will always go try a guitar/bass in a shop if I can and then go and order it online somewhere cheaper.[/b] Some people probably see that as 'bad' but if I can get something £££s cheaper I will, its my money at the end of the day. The other issues guitar shops have is the lack of varied stock, if you want a Fender or Gibson thats great but if you want anything else you're having to order online anyway. Stock of bass guitars is even worse... [b]I wont be suprised to see guitar shops start closing over the years [/b]and an eventual end to rock n roll in general. [/quote] For this very reason... If I owned a shop and knew this was what you were going to do..without even asking me if I could or would price match, I'd charge you to try out the kit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1420802982' post='2653547'] But I wouldn't buy lower cost basses without seeing, hearing and playing them [/quote] Depends where you are. I see you are based in the South East - much closer to most sellers. Up here in the frozen (and windy) North we have to be a bit more creative... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1420803213' post='2653553'] Depends where you are. I see you are based in the South East - much closer to most sellers. Up here in the frozen (and windy) North we have to be a bit more creative... [/quote] yes... maybe, but I've travelled down to Yeovil to try ...and as it happened, buy. We also travelled up to Liverpool ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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