Pub band question

[stingrayPete1977]

Thats just 'putting a bit of....' in the PA, not bleed.

[JTUK]

Strictly speaking yes, but the effect is the same. It isn't overspill into a mic as the keys are direct and the gtr is close mic'd
but we only want a little of the sound, as it is to embellish the main backline sound which does the bulk of the work.
This saves the P.A getting a caining.
Depends how many ppl there are in the room and the size of it depends how big the P.A needs to be but we only have
3k in modern active terms. You'd think that would be enough, but there isn't much left in that if we gun it hard.
You can get 1000w 12" tops but you have to be reasonable with the work you give it to do.

[stingrayPete1977]

http://www.recordingmag.com/glossary/B/42.html As a site of musicians (I use the term lightly for myself!) strictly speaking we should use the correct terms imo, it only generates more arguements down the line

[JTUK]

Yep, but we are talking about Live...and since the signal is not the main signal, it achieves the same sort of thing.
Only this time we mean to have it there.

Many studios go with their defintions of bleed on the track as they want to record live for a better feel...or that is the goal.
Overspill in this instance now becomes a factor so it has to be manageable. So, now you learn to use it as it would be too hard/costly/PITA to limit.
That is what we are doing...using it as it is going to be there anyway...esp if you use bloody SM58 as vox mics.

Edited September 2, 2014 by JTUK

[stingrayPete1977]

It is live in the studio... at the moment it is being played is live...bleed is bleed, running a lead from the keys to the PA, mic'ing a guitar amp but keeping them low in the mix is just keeping them low in the mix, if they are lower than the signal going in via the SM58s as actual bleed (nothing to do with a studio term, it is still bleed) then you are not gaining anything and if the signal from the keys/guitar is higher than the vocal mic bleed signal then it is no different to what we all do and you mix the levels accordingly. Like I said before that is not bleed it is just putting a bit of keys/guitar in the FOH mix, barring any gig where all the players are in separate closed rooms it is what every band in the world does isnt it?

I get what you are saying JTUK, you are putting into the PA what the mics would collect anyway, you can control the gain level to give more than the mics out front but unless you are doing something to stop the actual bleed you still cant reduce the amount of gain can you?

Edited September 2, 2014 by stingrayPete1977

[blue]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1409601225' post='2541448']
In, let the PA do the work and have a nice quiet onstage sound .
[/quote]

Exactly,However, very hard to do because guitarist have this thing about constantly turning up their amps.

Blue

[EBS_freak]

What a highly entertaining thread. Well done all.

[JTUK]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1409697298' post='2542480']
It is live in the studio... at the moment it is being played is live...bleed is bleed, running a lead from the keys to the PA, mic'ing a guitar amp but keeping them low in the mix is just keeping them low in the mix, if they are lower than the signal going in via the SM58s as actual bleed (nothing to do with a studio term, it is still bleed) then you are not gaining anything and if the signal from the keys/guitar is higher than the vocal mic bleed signal then it is no different to what we all do and you mix the levels accordingly. Like I said before that is not bleed it is just putting a bit of keys/guitar in the FOH mix, barring any gig where all the players are in separate closed rooms it is what every band in the world does isnt it?

I get what you are saying JTUK, you are putting into the PA what the mics would collect anyway, you can control the gain level to give more than the mics out front but unless you are doing something to stop the actual bleed you still cant reduce the amount of gain can you?
[/quote]

Forget the SM58's... they are often close enough on the stage that they do get the overall band volume into the mic, which is why we use
a 58 OH.
The keys are direct in and the gtr has a 57 or equivalent but never a 58. There will be overspill into the Vox mics
but that is the deal with 58's. Our sound is enhanced with the gtr and keys signals plus a mic or two on the kit.
This gives an sound enhancement into the P.A but isn't the sole or main source. This is the same thing you are doing with overspill
but the only difference is that the close attention of the signal is more controlled. I don't think bleed is a bad thing anyway, especially
as you might not have the area to control it so you work with it, not against.
There is no way the P.A we have could do the job that the backline does so we combine both to give a loud and pokey mix.
In smaller places we have one of the better sounds around, so it works for us.

Bleed is a pretty vague term so I'll use it in this context as it achieves exactly the same result.

[ubit]

That's the thing I suppose. Our PA is a pretty heavy duty EV set up and can easily handle everything going through it. As I said , everything is through it, but the volumes are generally not too high, so it's a good balance but not oppressive to the paying public!

[ickleben]

Difficult question to answer really.. depends on the room.. the same dimension room with a stone floor/walls is going to have different requirements to a wooden floor and plaster walls...Is the stage raised or are you just in the corner.. or are you in a corner or at the end.. and that malarkey. ..don't be afraid to fiddle but don't fiddle with it too much because that's naughty.

[Truckstop]

For pubs? Out!

Most bands that I've seen use a full range PA in pubs tend to sound terrible because the room's too small and they're always far too loud. They always take up too much space, they take ages to put together and set up and generally far too invasive for a nice intimate pub setting.

Truckstop

[Les]

Having everything through the PA has no bearing on how loud the band is.

[Thurbs]

Everything through the PA. I find it much quicker, there is more space on stage and you get the best control. I havent yet managed to convince the guitarists though. Really anoying...

[ubit]

My point proved last night. Went to see a band playing in the usual place we play. PA was used just for vocals. Some songs all we were hearing was guitar as we were on his side. Bass was being lost for some of the songs.
We put everything through the PA but do not turn it up to excessive levels but a perfect mix is being sent down both sides of the bar

[ubit]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1409850480' post='2543976']
Having everything through the PA has no bearing on how loud the band is.
[/quote]

Exactly!

[Japhet]

Playing in pubs there will always be constraints. In my experience, an un-miked drumkit is plenty loud enough and levels get set accordingly. A bit of kick drum through the PA can help. Good sound separation only happens when band members listen to each other and are sympathetic. As stated before, if you don't have a sound man out front I can't see the point in all going through the PA and it seems like a bit of a modern fad. We normally get a couple of our trusted punters to give us a bit of input as to what the sound is like out front.

[lojo]

Best sound (volume balance wise) ever heard in a bar was electric drums and bass/guitar all straight into a pa after effects, no amps or loud acoustic drum equipment.

Worked well for the disco/pop band in question

[Geddys nose]

I have a Line6 stage scape PA it's a formidable PA for the Musician/Sound guy who do both, We set the back line as low as possible and run through the PA, It has a feature called trim tracking- if the guitarist turns up half way through the set it turns the gain down for him automatically to the original level , Fair enough the amp will still be louder from the back line but hopefully the PA will be louder still.

The other great feature when we sound check is we can record the band playing for 20seconds and loop the playing and mix through a ipad from out front until it's perfect, It does rely again on the back line being quiet but it does work well. I know there's a few of the new mixers that do have similar features so technology is helping us bands.

[JTUK]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1410073244' post='2545766']
My point proved last night. Went to see a band playing in the usual place we play. PA was used just for vocals. Some songs all we were hearing was guitar as we were on his side. Bass was being lost for some of the songs.
We put everything through the PA but do not turn it up to excessive levels but a perfect mix is being sent down both sides of the bar
[/quote]

Not as simple as this though, IMO... Some bands have no idea whatsoever so there might not be anything you can do for them.
I mean...what can more simpler than self mixing...?? if you can't hear the other guys, you'd think it would be obvious someone was wrong...??
er...apparently not...!!!

Out of the last 5 gigs we'd played... and 3 of them were with a dep who played too quiet, .. our best sound has been
in a pub with a self mix. And 2 of those gigs were with a full, pretty well specc'd engr'd P.A.( 6k rigs so not just a couple of bins and tops ) which just shouldn't be second to a pub rig...
to our self mix P.A efforts...But they defintely were.

[stingrayPete1977]

You can go too far, 6k pa at its lowest levels with too many monitors is going to be hard to keep under control in the dog and duck ime, I've seen a pa over heat and cut out in a similar situation as the amps didn't like ticking over so low.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1410075563' post='2545784']
Best sound (volume balance wise) ever heard in a bar was electric drums and bass/guitar all straight into a pa after effects, no amps or loud acoustic drum equipment.

Worked well for the disco/pop band in question
[/quote]
This is exactly what we do, Jo Becky drums that look like real ones and one of the tower pa systems that goes behind us, simple and effective for a pub gig.

[JTUK]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1410095090' post='2546012']
You can go too far, 6k pa at its lowest levels with too many monitors is going to be hard to keep under control in the dog and duck ime, I've seen a pa over heat and cut out in a similar situation as the amps didn't like ticking over so low.
[/quote]

Those P.A weren't indoors and not at pubs, tho, I should have been clearer in what gigs they were for. Both Festivals with a 'professional' crew which makes the situation even worse.
Both times, a few regulars said the sound wasn't as good as our usual sound and I said that that was largely beyond our control. Both times, the stage sound was pretty ok, so the problem was out front to the audience, I think.

For pubs, we would run 2 tops and a sub which would be about 3k max, if we were ragging them, but I only run all cabs at 12 which is roughly half way up on the volume pots. I may balance the sub upwards a bit but I am just really looking for
seperation and a bit of depth. I'll record most of the gigs with a Zoom h2 which is pretty forgiving and the recordings 'confirm' the better pub mix sound, IMO.
What that says about the engr's of the pro outdoor rigs, I am not sure.

Edited September 7, 2014 by JTUK

[Les]

I'm yet to be convinced by any of the naysayers points about everything through the PA.

I'm blessed to have a drummer that plays at a perfect volume, hard enough to make them sound like drums but nothing daft.

We set up at The Dog and Dick ale emporium. I'm cursed with being the sound guy as well so I have the hideous task of putting everything through the PA. this involves a whole 4 leads and 2 minutes 38 seconds of my life that I'll never get back.

Drummer plays, I can do nothing about the onstage volume of his kit, it is what it is, we don't monitor them (and I'm assuming as we're talking pub bands that's the norm,electronic kits excepted) so I then turn my back line up to the appropriate volume so I can hear it and the drummer can while he's playing.

Guitarist then chimes in at the appropriate volume relative to the drums and me, all is well. 2 acoustics and the mandolin are checked in the same fashion but they go through the foldback. All is still well. we all start singing and playing, foldback levels adjusted accordingly.

The reality is that unless the drummer starts to play quieter or louder there really is no other workable volume setting for any of the other instruments/vocals to go to without ruining a happy onstage sound.

Then after we sacrifice a goat to the gods of stagesound I turn the PA up and nip out front to listen. FAR too loud, jump back on stage and much to my relief I find the master slider on the desk actually goes down as well as up. Back out front, I'm a bit too loud and the vocals are a bit too quiet, jump back on stage alter a couple of sliders. Nip out again, fine, that'll do for me.

Run my fingers across my throat, band stops, takes off their instruments and f**ks of to the bar leaving me to tidy up after them.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1410100634' post='2546072']


Those P.A weren't indoors and not at pubs, tho, I should have been clearer in what gigs they were for. Both Festivals with a 'professional' crew which makes the situation even worse.
Both times, a few regulars said the sound wasn't as good as our usual sound and I said that that was largely beyond our control. Both times, the stage sound was pretty ok, so the problem was out front to the audience, I think.

For pubs, we would run 2 tops and a sub which would be about 3k max, if we were ragging them, but I only run all cabs at 12 which is roughly half way up on the volume pots. I may balance the sub upwards a bit but I am just really looking for
seperation and a bit of depth. I'll record most of the gigs with a Zoom h2 which is pretty forgiving and the recordings 'confirm' the better pub mix sound, IMO.
What that says about the engr's of the pro outdoor rigs, I am not sure.
[/quote]
Id say that is the norm really, a small pub is no different to a pub full (or quite often empty) of people sitting in at a practice, our sound at practice is always good and balanced, once you venture away from that it goes downhill! I've seen numerous pro bands spend half of the gig giving hand signals to the sound crew trying to get the on stage mix right, red hot chili peppers sounded crap at knebworth for example but I bet they sound killer in their studio in LA

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1410104183' post='2546132']
I'm yet to be convinced...
[/quote]

Yes, this is exactly how we self-tech our PA in venues without FOH techs; works a treat. No goat sacrificed, though; is that really mandatory..? [size=4] [/size]