Guest bassman7755 Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 (warning - the 60's gramophone aesthetic fans amongst you arn't going to like this ...) [url="http://www.audiokinesis.com/product_ak_thunderchild112.html"]http://www.audiokinesis.com/product_ak_thunderchild112.html[/url] Its almost there is some unwritten law against using a large flared horn in a "bass" speaker, when surely it is the obviously thing to do when designing a flat response 2-way system ?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Probably because it would be more expensive and overkill... I don't think the basic tweeters you see/hear on most cabs are that great tho, IME... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Way too many tweeters in that cab for my liking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 (edited) [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1387726850' post='2314919']why-arent-more-bass-cabs-designed-like-this [/quote]Because they don't look like every other cab. Bass players aren't quite as bad as guitar'd players when it comes to buying with their eyes rather than their ears, but they come close. The ideal cab showroom would have all cabs hidden behind a scrim, so that you couldn't see the cabs you were trying, you could only hear them. Said showroom wouldn't stay in business a week. [quote]Its almost there is some unwritten law against using a large flared horn in a "bass" speaker, when surely it is the obviously thing to do when designing a flat response 2-way system ?[/quote]Obvious to who? Duke approached the design with a clean sheet of paper and a real engineers perspective: [i]How do I make the best speaker possible for this application? [/i]That's diametrically opposed to the standard of most companies, which is: [i]What do we make these look like so that they'll sell. [/i] Edited December 22, 2013 by Bill Fitzmaurice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 like these too? (first person to mention screw colour gets to be scrooge this christmas btw) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1387730127' post='2314957'] The ideal cab showroom would have all cabs hidden behind a scrim, so that you couldn't see the cabs you were trying, you could only hear them. Said showroom wouldn't stay in business a week. [/quote] A few weeks back we sold a cab to a customer by making him face away whilst we plugged in a variety of different cabs whilst he kept playing. He walked away with a Bag End 1x10". Not at all what he was looking for when he came in We sometimes give people a selection of basses to play and refuse to tell them how much they cost. Did that recently with a batch of Fender J's and the customer bought a Mexican with upgraded pickups ahead of a stock USA model. It simply sounded better and played just as well. Blind testing is definitely a good idea when it's practical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 I wonder if one of these horn tweeter designs would still come out ahead if the blind test included a fuzz pedal, or other distortion effects? Although I suppose the switchable 3.5KHz roll-off mentioned in the specs might help with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 [quote name='molan' timestamp='1387732365' post='2314991'] A few weeks back we sold a cab to a customer by making him face away whilst we plugged in a variety of different cabs whilst he kept playing. He walked away with a Bag End 1x10". Not at all what he was looking for when he came in We sometimes give people a selection of basses to play and refuse to tell them how much they cost. Did that recently with a batch of Fender J's and the customer bought a Mexican with upgraded pickups ahead of a stock USA model. It simply sounded better and played just as well. Blind testing is definitely a good idea when it's practical [/quote] blind testing is brilliant- I went through a phase where I decided I "had" to have a jazz bass - so rather than go on here or a shop and buy the "best" I could find I went and played loads and loads. Realised that there is an slight and indirect correlation between price and quality - but you can find some gems. The most fun to play was an old japanese cimar that cost me £40 (I bought that one), the all round best, the Valenti that Richardd is trying to sell at the moment (why did I sell it I don't know) the most dull and dead sounding was a sadowsky. (though not all sadowskys I tried were dull and dead) With Fender stuff themselves I loved the american vintage reissue series, and highway one - but couldn't find a nice USA one in-between that. And with nice chinese squiers seeming to be a better buy than mexican fender. The moral of it was blind testing is good - so often we are blinded by the price tag or looks. It also made me realise that a fair few bass designs are fairly generic and the difference between a top of the top range and bottom isn't that massive. And that some basses will be engineered in a way that they can do things that no other bass can. If that thing is what you want then it's worth buying- whether it's a £10k Ritter (for Molan), a £100 set of pickups or something lovely and made of Wenge (the 1985 Thumb bass I got last week). We do ourselves no favours when we look at the price rather than the engineering.... anyway.... I would say though for cabs... how do you do blind testing in the shop? it's different to a live occasion... I'ld love to give it a try though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1387726850' post='2314919'] Its almost there is some unwritten law against using a large flared horn in a "bass" speaker, when surely it is the obviously thing to do when designing a flat response 2-way system ?. [/quote] Who wants one of those!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1387730215' post='2314959'] [/quote] Less than ideal choice of screw colour there, imo... Other than that, I'd love to try 'em out. Are they heavy ('cos I'm old and decrepit... )..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1387733045' post='2315006'] I wonder if one of these horn tweeter designs would still come out ahead if the blind test included a fuzz pedal, or other distortion effects? [/quote]No worse than any tweeter equipped cab, and with the ability to roll off above 3.5kHz, probably a lot better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 (edited) [quote name='molan' timestamp='1387732365' post='2314991'] A few weeks back we sold a cab to a customer by making him face away whilst we plugged in a variety of different cabs whilst he kept playing. He walked away with a Bag End 1x10". Not at all what he was looking for when he came in We sometimes give people a selection of basses to play and refuse to tell them how much they cost. Did that recently with a batch of Fender J's and the customer bought a Mexican with upgraded pickups ahead of a stock USA model. It simply sounded better and played just as well. Blind testing is definitely a good idea when it's practical [/quote] You are a disgrace as a salesman. (always try to sell the most expensive thing in the shop) But possibly quite a decent human being. Edited December 22, 2013 by gjones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 The 3.5k rolloff thing is an interesting one, your essentially getting the same frequency range as a single 15/12/10 driver but with the mids coming from the horn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 [quote name='gjones' timestamp='1387738424' post='2315111'] You are a disgrace as a salesman. (always try to sell the most expensive thing in the shop) ...[/quote] Not the item with the highest margin..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1387733647' post='2315019'] I would say though for cabs... how do you do blind testing in the shop? it's different to a live occasion... I'ld love to give it a try though! [/quote] Just make the customer sit with his back to the cabs and then have a sales person on hand to swap from cab to cab or speaker to speaker. We actually did it with a pretty big 'name' pro player recently for amps and pre-amps. Worked out which cab he liked first and then swapped back & forth between heads, power amps and pre-amps. Took two of us to 'disguise' what we were doing but it was really helpful and he realised that his favourite sound was actually from the head he already owned He hadn't actually bought his one with him but we had one in the shop and thought it was the best 'base' point to work from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1387741529' post='2315148'] Not the item with the highest margin..? [/quote] There's no point in trying to pull the wool over people's eyes and to attempt to flog them whatever is worth most, has highest margin or is simply something we'd like to shift. Just leads, in the long term, to unhappy customers and a feeling of mistrust. Honesty is always the best policy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 [quote name='molan' timestamp='1387744949' post='2315196'] There's no point in trying to pull the wool over people's eyes and to attempt to flog them whatever is worth most, has highest margin or is simply something we'd like to shift. Just leads, in the long term, to unhappy customers and a feeling of mistrust. Honesty is always the best policy [/quote] You wouldn't be in 'Sales', by any chance, would you..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1387746235' post='2315207'] You wouldn't be in 'Sales', by any chance, would you..? [/quote] Nope, never have been. Pretty much always worked in 'customer service' - very different approach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1387736965' post='2315080'] Less than ideal choice of screw colour there, imo... Other than that, I'd love to try 'em out. Are they heavy ('cos I'm old and decrepit... )..? [/quote] right... you... you're going to be visited by 3 ghosts this christmas! The Ghost of Barefaced are good/bad, the Ghost of Leo got it right first time and the ghost of why buy a fodera when you can buy a squier. And it will last all christmas- on repeat, ad infintium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 [quote name='molan' timestamp='1387747401' post='2315224'] Nope, never have been. Pretty much always worked in 'customer service' - very different approach [/quote] [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1387748692' post='2315250'] right... you... you're going to be visited by 3 ghosts this christmas! The Ghost of Barefaced are good/bad, the Ghost of Leo got it right first time and the ghost of why buy a fodera when you can buy a squier. And it will last all christmas- on repeat, ad infintium [/quote] Good gracious..! No..! Such cruelty..! I take it back, every word..! They're wonderful screws..! So fitting, so appropriate..! Please..! Please..! Oh no..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1387726850' post='2314919'] (Its almost there is some unwritten law against using a large flared horn in a "bass" speaker, when surely it is the obviously thing to do when designing a flat response 2-way system ?. [/quote] The flat response part is the difficult bit with horns! From my experience of hifi horn speakers, unless the horn is seriously well-designed it can sound properly honky - as if you'd cupped your hands and shouted through them. Fair enough, it's louder and therefore more efficient, but not necessarily accurate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 [url="http://www.audiokinesis.com/product_ak_thunderchild115.html"]http://www.audiokinesis.com/product_ak_thunderchild115.html[/url] Yeah, but.....you know......$1000...... plastic corners! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 [quote name='molan' timestamp='1387744949' post='2315196'] There's no point in trying to pull the wool over people's eyes and to attempt to flog them whatever is worth most, has highest margin or is simply something we'd like to shift. Just leads, in the long term, to unhappy customers and a feeling of mistrust. Honesty is always the best policy [/quote] The type of shops I like The last thing I want from a sale POV is a load of Bull... garaunteed walk..!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 (edited) [quote name='Leonard Smalls' timestamp='1387812011' post='2316000'] The flat response part is the difficult bit with horns! From my experience of hifi horn speakers, unless the horn is seriously well-designed it can sound properly honky - as if you'd cupped your hands and shouted through them. Fair enough, it's louder and therefore more efficient, but not necessarily accurate... [/quote]Read this: [url="http://www.avsforum.com/t/1353217/speaker-shootout"]http://www.avsforum....peaker-shootout[/url] Or the first page, anyway. The DR200 and DR250 are my designs, fully horn loaded, not just the tweeters. True, EQ is an absolute necessity, but that's true of all speakers, let alone high sensitivity pro-sound horns, because there are no rooms with flat response. Not that I recommend pro-sound PA cabs for home stereo/theater, this guys system is overkill to the nth degree. But there's no such thing as horn 'honk' with a well designed horn, be it a tweeter or a subwoofer. There are a lot of poorly done horns, though, so the notion is understandable. Edited December 23, 2013 by Bill Fitzmaurice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1387823076' post='2316160'] Read this: [url="http://www.avsforum.com/t/1353217/speaker-shootout"]http://www.avsforum....peaker-shootout[/url] Or the first page, anyway. The DR200 and DR250 are my designs, fully horn loaded, not just the tweeters. True, EQ is an absolute necessity, but that's true of all speakers, let alone high sensitivity pro-sound horns, because there are no rooms with flat response. Not that I recommend pro-sound PA cabs for home stereo/theater, this guys system is overkill to the nth degree. But there's no such thing as horn 'honk' with a well designed horn, be it a tweeter or a subwoofer. There are a lot of poorly done horns, though, so the notion is understandable. [/quote] Bill you actually hit on a question I've been wondering about... So compare an SPL chart from a bass reflex cab, say your very own Simplexx (the 12 bass/key cab 2512 woofer and apt80 tweeter) line to a horn loaded speaker, I'll use your Jack 12 with the same speaker as an example... now this is me the simpleton speaking here.... with a bass amp into the Simplexx I could plug it in and have a reasonable idea on how it will work and what the eq will do.... with the jack... how do you in your exp. eq the horn... just I'm not sure that my bass amp would be flexible enough to eq in the right places, I guess ideally you use a power amp with inbuilt DSP and just plug a preamp into that... I understand that practically the horn design is better and more efficient etc... but how practically do you make it work? Or in the real world once you stick the cab in a room does it make no difference? Edit: it wouldn't let me link to the charts on your forum.... simplexx here .... http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=20963 jack here ... http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8778 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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